John Broadhurst c 1859

[bettyespana]

Trying to sort out my mysterious Gt Grandfather.I do know that he was born c 1859 Knighton,Radnorshire BMD 11b 169.
By the 1881c he was living at 5 Starkie St West Derby & was a boot finisher.He was living in the household of a Charles White & family.His Aunt Sophia had lived with Charles Whites family as a housemaid in the Midlands before being transported to Tasmania in 1842.
In recent times I found that the above JB had in fact been the husband of my Gt Gt Grandmother Mary Ellen,they married 1888.Mary Ellen had a daughter Margaret Amelia who was my Gt Grandmother.1891c JB & Mary Ellen are in Windle,St Helens without Margaret who is living with her Grandparents in Wigan.
Then by 1901 he has disappeared & allegedly changed his name to George Broadbent although my Grandmas birth cert names her father as John Broadbent.
On the 1901c he claims to be born Clun,Shropshire & they had moved to Eccles,Lancs
where he had a business as a clogger & shoemaker.I could not find him in records of Clun,& even contacted the registrars but to no avail.No one of that name ever born there.
George Broadbent died 1915 Eccles & Margaret had given him 7 children.
Then I had a breakthrough with the 1911c when I found he was born Knighton.
By quite a lot of searches & hard work we found that John Broadhurst married to Margarets mother Mary Ellen was probably one & the same person who had gone to Eccles with Margaret & set up home there & had a family.No marriage found for Margaret & George & no knowledge of any other marriage of John Broadhurst prior to his marriage to Mary Ellen Dickenson in 1888.
I would love to find out more as no one in the family knows/knew anything about him.

bettyespana

[maudarby]

Hi
Slightly confused about Margaret Amelia. Was she Mary Ellen's daughter born before her marriage to John Broadhurst or was he her father?
The Margaret living with George Broadbent in 1911 is a different Margaret born c 1865 in Liverpool.
Moggie

[bettyespana]

John Broadhurst 1859

Hi
Slightly confused about Margaret Amelia. Was she Mary Ellen's daughter born before her marriage to John Broadhurst or was he her father?
The Margaret living with George Broadbent in 1911 is a different Margaret born c 1865 in Liverpool.
Moggie

Hi Moggie,

Sorry for the confusion Margaret Amelia Dickenson was the daughter of Mary Ellen & Joseph Dickenson.Margaret was b.1878 in West Derby & her father Joseph died 1879.
Mary Ellen Dickenson married John Broadhurst at Our Lady of St Nicholas & St Anne Liverpool Sept qtr 1888.
In the 1891c RG12/3020/F76/p42 they are living at 14 Milk St,Windle St Helens without Mary Ellens daughter who is with her Grandparents in Wigan.
In 1897 Margaret A(Mary Ellens daughter) gives birth to my Grandmother Agnes in Scholes,Wigan.The father on the birth cert is named as [U]John Broadbent[U]
By 1901c they are at Worsley Rd Winton Eccles where they lived the rest of their lives.
The only difference being that John is now George. I can assure you that Margaret & George did live there(over & behind the shop) as I used to visit Margaret Amelia(my Gt Gran)there & I have one of Georges business cards in my possession.My mother was born 3 doors away.The only people in the family who ever saw John/George?are their children who are all deceased.
I realise why you think this is a different Margaret living with George as the wording declares she was b.1865 which again is not true,I have her birth cert passed down to me from my Grandmother Agnes(Margarets daughter).If I recall it also stated they were man & wife for longer than they were which would have made Margaret a minor.
What I want to determine is was John Broadhurst married before his marriage to Mary Ellen Dickenson & where did he go if he is not still with Mary Ellen.No-one can find him.
Many people have tried to research this & all come to the same conclusion that this is one & the same man.
Kind regards
bettyespana

[Olde Crone Holden]

I'm rather confused too, but who is this then:

George J Broadhurst

to

Margaret E Hilton 1891 West Derby Lpool.

OC

[bettyespana]

I'm rather confused too, but who is this then:

George J Broadhurst

to

Margaret E Hilton 1891 West Derby Lpool.

OC

Hi OC,

Sorry I don't know of this.All I know is what I have given in my messages.My Gt Grandma Margaret Amelia Dickenson was born Barnet St West Derby 5/02/1878

By 1891 she was only 13 & living with her maternal grandparents in Wigan. Can you give me more info on the above? If it is a marriage it only has a difference of 3yrs between the marriage of Margarets mother Mary Ellen Dickenson to John Broadhurst.If it is the same man then was Mary Ellen deceased or what.
There has never been a marriage found for Margaret & George(allegedly John) but I found that their last child Vincent John was registered in the name of Dickenson.Very strange when they all carried the name Broadbent.I don't wonder you are confused,sorting this out has been no easy feat I can tell you.

bettyespana

[Olde Crone Holden]

I think that Moggie and I are both saying that the George married to Margaret E in 1891 is a different George and Margaret from yours.

However, if the youngest child was registered as Dickenson, then that kind of proves your couple were not married to each other anyway.

EDIT - Um, Vincent John is registered as BROADBENT, not Dickenson.

OC

[bettyespana]

I think that Moggie and I are both saying that the George married to Margaret E in 1891 is a different George and Margaret from yours.

However, if the youngest child was registered as Dickenson, then that kind of proves your couple were not married to each other anyway.

EDIT - Um, Vincent John is registered as BROADBENT, not Dickenson.

OC

Thank you for the edit,I actually got that from another source who gave me a ref: 1914 June qtr 8C1274 but I appreciate you letting me know.It did puzzle me.
Where did you find it please.
bettyespana

[Olde Crone Holden]

It's on Freebmd - same reference you have but surname Broadbent, mother's maiden name Dickenson. I can't see any other children to this couple (on Lancsbmd)

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

I cannot see a birth for Agnes in 1897? What surname is on her birth cert, please?

Do you know when Mary Ellen died?

OC

[Arilla]

The PR for the George Broadhurst/Margaret Hilton marriage is now on Ancestry (part of the new Liverpool records), details as follows:
14 Dec 1891, St Mary's Edge Hill - George James Broadhurst, Bachelor, age 36, Cashier of 30 Derby Rd, Southport. Father James Broadhurst, builder (deceased)
Spouse - Margaret Emily Hilton, Spinster age 31 of 41 Marmaduke St, Edge Hill, Father George Hilton (deceased), Stationer
Witnesses - William & Mary Jane Hilton
I can't see any connection to the family you are searching for, but hope this helps.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Thanks Arilla.

Betty, is this couple on the 1911 as well as your George and Margaret?

OC

[bettyespana]

I cannot see a birth for Agnes in 1897? What surname is on her birth cert, please?

Do you know when Mary Ellen died?

OC

Agnes' original birth cert is only a small one but states Agnes daughter of John & Margaret Broadbent birth date (sorry) 7th July 1896
Registration was 6th Aug 1896 Registrar Robert Halliwell - sub district Wigan. No.20 in the registry book
She was actually born at 17 Greenoughs Row Scholes Wigan.
I also have a copy which I acquired in 1999 because the small one is in a bad state.Fathers occupation Shoemaker.It also states Mother:Margaret Broadbent formerly Dickinson(incorrect spelling)as she was Dickenson.
Agnes' siblings were:Harold 1899? Lucy 1900-died age 2,Clifford 1903,Gladys 1905- died as a child,Marion 1907 & Phyllis 1909,Vincent John 1914.

I don't know when Mary Ellen Broadhurst died.Born 1857 Wigan 8C33.Daughter of John Ball & Margaret Taylor.
Married Joseph Dickenson -Railway Clerk/Lay Preacher P.Methodist 9.3.1875
Widowed: 1879 West Derby
2nd Marriage:Sept qtr 1888 John George Broadhurst (Shoemaker) 8B95

Hope this is of help
bettyespana

[bettyespana]

[QUOTE=Arilla;2253214]The PR for the George Broadhurst/Margaret Hilton marriage is now on Ancestry (part of the new Liverpool records), details as follows:
14 Dec 1891, St Mary's Edge Hill - George James Broadhurst, Bachelor, age 36, Cashier of 30 Derby Rd, Southport. Father James Broadhurst, builder (deceased)
Spouse - Margaret Emily Hilton, Spinster age 31 of 41 Marmaduke St, Edge Hill, Father George Hilton (deceased), Stationer
Witnesses - William & Mary Jane Hilton
I can't see any connection to the family you are searching for, but hope this helps.[/QUOTE

No Arilla this is no connection at all.but thank you for your input.
bettyespana

[Olde Crone Holden]

Apologies if I'm going over old ground, Betty, but have you looked for George Broadbent on previous census?

I still think these are two different men, because if you were going to change your identity in order to set up house with your much younger stepdaughter, I think you would use a completely different name, not one which sounds similar!

John Broadbent and his wife could have died or could have emigrated. did they have children together and if so, have you found those children in 1901 and 1911? I'm not seeing a definite death for either of them which doesn't help.

I'm wondering if Agnes' father was unknown, but Maragret put John Broadbent as father for respectability's sake and also because John was going to bring Agnes up? I have one cert in my family where it looks as if the grandfather is the father, but in fact the BAPTISM of the child gives a different father's name.

Do you have any of the children's birth certificates? None of the births are listed on Lancsbmd, GRRR, except possibly Lucy in 1901, but she has mother's maiden name of WILKINSON, lol, so probably not your Lucy.

OC

[bettyespana]

Apologies if I'm going over old ground, Betty, but have you looked for George Broadbent on previous census?

I still think these are two different men, because if you were going to change your identity in order to set up house with your much younger stepdaughter, I think you would use a completely different name, not one which sounds similar!

John Broadbent and his wife could have died or could have emigrated. did they have children together and if so, have you found those children in 1901 and 1911? I'm not seeing a definite death for either of them which doesn't help.

I'm wondering if Agnes' father was unknown, but Maragret put John Broadbent as father for respectability's sake and also because John was going to bring Agnes up? I have one cert in my family where it looks as if the grandfather is the father, but in fact the BAPTISM of the child gives a different father's name.

Do you have any of the children's birth certificates? None of the births are listed on Lancsbmd, GRRR, except possibly Lucy in 1901, but she has mother's maiden name of WILKINSON, lol, so probably not your Lucy.

OC

Yes,I have looked everywhere for George Broadbent,& cannot find him! My Gt Grandmother Margaret(his spouse) lived until the 1950's & I knew her she didn't emigrate.She lived where they moved to in Winton behind their shop.
They are both buried at St Marks Church Worsley in the family grave alongside Lucy,Gladys & Agnes(my gran).
I only have my gran Agnes' birth cert.However I do have details on the family tree of the childrens baptisms at St Marks,Worsley which I realise pinpoints when they moved to Winton from Wigan.They moved to 8 Clovelly Road Winton before opening the shop at 360 Worsley Rd Winton

Harold Broadbent b.22.9.1898 Wigan & bapt St Marks Worsley p109,entry 872 -6.11.1898 (This pinpoints the move to Winton)
Lucy Broadbent b.12.12.1900 Winton & bapt St Marks Worsley p128,entry1020 - 3.3.1901
Clifford Broadbent b.22.2.1903 Winton & bapt St Marks Worsley p.142 entry 1136 - 29.3.1903
Phyllis Broadbent b.10.8.1909 Winton & bapt St Marks Worsley p.193 entry 1543 - 25.8.1909

All with their parents named George & Margaret Broadbent

These are all on Lancashire OPC for St Marks Worsley where some of our family went to school including myself.
I also now have Vincent John Broadbent 8C1274 BMD Barton on Irwell died Warrington 2004

I have re-checked with my Mum & Aunt & as far as they are concerned they never heard of Margarets husband referred to as John.His business as a shoemaker was in the name of George Broadbent & it was only when their mother Agnes died that they found her father was named John on the birth cert.
We always celebrated her birthday 12th July when it was in fact 17th July.
I have checked Agnes's Marriage cert & her father is described as George Broadbent(deceased)Shoemaker.Agnes married 14th July 1917 -St Marks.

Hope this helps

Betty

[bettyespana]

Forgot to mention that my Gt Grandad is named as George Broadbent on the family grave not John Broadbent.

Betty

[Olde Crone Holden]

I'm so sorry, I meant did John BroadHURST and his wife emigrate and have you found any of their children anywhere (Margaret's half-siblings in other words).

Also - and sorry to muddy the water still further - but there is a suspicious five year gap between the birth of Phyllis and Vincent. Might Vincent have been the son of Agnes, perhaps?

OC