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Brickwall (2) Adelaide Andrews' grandparents

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  • Brickwall (2) Adelaide Andrews' grandparents

    My grandmother's parents were Frederick Andrews and Anne Birmingham, and she was born in 1876 in Dublin, so were they, both in 1842. He was a pawnbroker.
    So far so good.
    Frederick's father, according to our family trees (from my uncle, and notes from Adelaide written down by my sister) was called John Andrews. He was also a pawnbroker, and must have been born in about 1820.
    We think, in Dublin. Very few members of the family were not born there. It's just possible he came from Northern Ireland, but unlikely.
    He was supposed to be the son of another John Andrews who had six sons.This is less certain! There were an awful lot of John Andrews around.

    His wife may have been another Ann. Her maiden name isn't known. But the name Watson appears as a middle name in succeeding generations, so is possible........but I can't find any evidence that this is right.
    Think I have exhausted the free sites....working on a low budget.
    Any info or ideas, please. - Alison

  • #2
    Originally posted by Frodsham70 View Post
    Frederick's father, according to our family trees (from my uncle, and notes from Adelaide written down by my sister) was called John Andrews.
    Confirmed by the marriage entry on FamilySearch
    Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.


    ... doesn't help much!!
    Elaine







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    • #3
      Yes, Elaine, thanks, I did find that, and know a lot more about Anne's father than Fred's.
      But having laid it all out, I am not very hopeful.
      There's a lack of John Andrews born in the right time frame in Dublin. I found four....but still have no definite birth date to maybe get a certificate...two have Johns as fathers, two have James....there are a lot in Northern Ireland, one I found had seven sons - no connection found!

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      • #4
        Re John Andrews born 1820 or before:
        I am STILL stuck on this one. Discussed it with my sister recently and realised that any church records, on the Irish Genealogy site, are either lost, destroyed or not yet found and put online.....but we thought there is another possibility.
        Some of the later family belonged to the Plymouth Brethren, who had no central church and met in houses. I now know they began (as 'Darbyites') in Dublin in 1827, far earlier than I thought - it is possible that he and his parents were part of this and before Civil Registration in 1865, the only place they may have recorded family details is - in the family Bible...........

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        • #5
          Oh - an omission. John Andrews was married to Marion Watson - info from a Vermont local history book! (His son Nathaniel emigrated.)

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          • #6
            Hi Alison,

            Have you tried looking for Trade Directories for Dublin to see if you can find a John Andrews who was pawn broker ? Presumably he was still a pawn broker in the 1840s when Frederick was born.

            Do you know when Anne's father was born ? and married ? That time scale might help in looking for John.

            If John Andrews was the son of John Andrews, then one would have to think that Frederick was not his first child, and he could have been married up to 20 years before Frederick's birth. My experiences tell me that most men and women were a lot older than their early 20s when they married, more especially if they were in trade, business or ag. labs. Most men were in their late 20s or even 30s after they had established a career or saved enough money to get married.

            So I think you should be looking for John Andrews birth a lot earlier than 1820. Look for a marriage between 1820 and 1822, unless there is evidence that Frederick was his first child.


            Diane
            Diane
            Sydney Australia
            Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

            Comment


            • #7
              Here's something unusual, kept in my family:

              1841 Census.


              City of Dublin, Parish of St Mary, Anglesea Row. Census book 5.

              (written upside down) “ ‘These papers only refer to Mt Jerome Cemetery.’ - A. Andrews.”


              John Bermingham, Head, 35, male, carpenter. Maried, 1834, can read and write.
              Frances Bermingham, wife, 34, female, fancy worker. Maried, 1834, can read and write. (born Murphy)

              Anne Bermingham, 1, female, child. Not maried, canot read.
              – All native to Dublin.


              No one was absent and no one had died since the last census…. 1831.
              A certified copy of portions of a census return.

              Family of Bermingham of Anglesea Row, Dublin.
              4 folios at 6d £ - : 2 : 0. Ordered by Andrews.



              This was ordered by a later Arthur Andrews (and we don't know which)
              obviously before 1922. Possibly to prove someone's age.
              I thought it might be a good idea to put it online....who knows, it might be useful to someone else!
              If only the other side of the family had done the same.....
              However, this shows that John Bermingham was born about 1806.

              About John Andrews, though:
              The only date for a child of his the I have is Nathaniel, who emigrated to Vermont and was born in 1838 - several records. He also got the 'Watson' as his middle name - I am assuming that he was the first child. Any vague dates for the others are after this.
              So - I reckon the earliest date for this John to be born is about 1820. All his children the we know of were born between 1838 and (probably) 1851.

              And re trade directories, I have searched all I can find online. I even found a list of Dublin pawnbrokers in 1842, which does not include John Andrews! I have found his son John, who turned out to be a pawnbroker's assistant (from a list in an advert in the Freeman's Journal) - but no John Andrews that could be him....ie earlier dates.

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              • #8
                because registration came in in 1864, a lot of people could not use birth certs to verify they were actually old enough. so people had to get copies of the 1841 and 1851 census entries and a baptism cert if they could, to apply for their pensions. so that will be what you have above.

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                • #9
                  Sorry I said earliest date for John, I meant latest date - ie if he was 18 in 1838!
                  He could of course have been a lot older. I know nothing about Marion Watson except that my grandmother thought she might have been a Scot - but Nathaniel said his parents were both born in Ireland in the census. No marriage found in either country.

                  I wonder whose pension this census copy was for? - I have no date when it was ordered.
                  (Eva, John's youngest child (we think) was '45' in 1901 and 60 in 1911....now this must have been pension age?)

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                  • #10
                    Still haven't found a marriage - BUT there are new records in FamilySearch and together with one formerly unidentifiable death record for the right date - I now know John Andrews was born in 1810! and died in 1893, so there are heaps of adverts in the British Library 'Freeman's Journal' Dublin which have been put in by him.
                    ............Unless they were inserted by his son John, also a pawnbroker.........now trying to sort them out.

                    - Ireland, Calendar of Wills and Administrations, 1858-1920

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Frodsham70 View Post
                      Still haven't found a marriage - BUT there are new records in FamilySearch and together with one formerly unidentifiable death record for the right date - I now know John Andrews was born in 1810! and died in 1893, so there are heaps of adverts in the British Library 'Freeman's Journal' Dublin which have been put in by him.
                      ............Unless they were inserted by his son John, also a pawnbroker.........now trying to sort them out.

                      - Ireland, Calendar of Wills and Administrations, 1858-1920

                      Hi Alison,
                      I find this Irish National Archives site much easier to search/navigate than familysearch for Irish wills:


                      Plus you also have an option to search by executor. Have a play!
                      Christine
                      Last edited by Karamazov; 28-08-13, 16:16.
                      Researching:
                      HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

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                      • #12
                        Actually I used ancestry to find a death record that fitted beautifully - I already had a list of possibles but couldn't identify him.
                        And I already know who the executor is! - only he's recorded as living in Bray, south of Dublin.....UH?

                        THEN I looked at the 'Freeman's Journal' in the free British Library newspapers - and found John Andrews, right address, selling a house in Bray a few years before.
                        Amazing how several sources go together!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Frodsham70 View Post
                          And I already know who the executor is! - only he's recorded as living in Bray, south of Dublin.....UH?
                          Sorry, didn't explain myself clearly - what I meant was you could search to see if any of your lot acted as executors for others. If they did, as I have found, it may lead to further connections.
                          Christine
                          Researching:
                          HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

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                          • #14
                            Continued....another link!
                            I was sent via Rootsweb a direct link to some rare Dublin marriages:


                            Explanation on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_Registers re clandestine marriages.

                            Found - after two years - John Andrews married Mary Ann Watson in 1828 at the Lutheran German Church - and I'm pretty sure it was a mixed marriage. Still on the trail.

                            (sorry about the font, I can't seem to change it back!)

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                            • #15
                              Now it's changed back!

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