Struggling to get a Birth Certificate

[crashmatt]

Hi,
I'm progressing along lovely with my tree and think I've found my first true 'stumbler', and would appreciate any help you can offer.

I'm researching my Great Grandmother Emily Smith, born 1878, married a Horton, then married a Nicholls (1909). (My Great Grandfather).

I'm looking to get her birth certifcate and GRO need her mothers name. (That's why I need her birth cert!!).
The problem is there is a discrepancy between dates and locations.

In the 1901 Census it says she was born in Willenhall and she is living with Arthur Horton (b1865) in Wednesfield, Staffs, and has 2 children May & Emily.

In the 1911 Census, Arthur has obviously died and she has married Thomas Nicholls (b1878). She still has May & Emily (But now with different years of birth - as is hers) and a new son - Thomas. (He is classed as Horton in certain transcriptions but on census is a Nicholls). It also says she now is born in Hull, York.
If you put the two side by side, you notice the differences - but there are too many similarities for them not to be the same family.

Her father, William Smith, is deceased in 1909 and was a coal miner (Acording to her marriage cert).

I'm sorry to have gone on a bit, it's really beginning to bug me and I don't know what to do.

I'd really appreciate if anyone is able to have a look and offer their opinion or can solve it.
Thankyou so much

Matt

[maudarby]

Could this be her baptism?
Staffordshire, Heath Town, Holy Trinity
Emily Smith baptised 7th Jan 1877, parents William James & Elizabeth Smith, father's occupation miner, abode Prestwood Road.
Moggie

[Mary from Italy]

The GRO don't need the mother's name, just the reference number (volume and page) from the BMD index, which you can find here:

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

However, until you can be sure of her birthplace, there's no chance of finding her in the index.

Do you have the Horton marriage certificate? If not, you'd do well to get it before trying to work out which is the correct birth, to confirm her father's name and occupation.

Have you found a likely candidate for Emily in 1881 or 1891?

In the 1911 Census, Arthur has obviously died

Never make assumptions

[Mary from Italy]

That baptism looks promising, moggie.

This is presumably the first marriage:

Marriages Dec 1897
HORTON Arthur Wolverhampton 6b 935
SKELDON Kate Wolverhampton 6b 935
Smith Emily Wolverhampton 6b 935
SPEED William Wolverhampton 6b 935

[Mary from Italy]

This looks like Arthur's death:

Deaths Jun 1908
Horton Arthur 42 Wolverhampton 6b 345

although you really need the cert to confirm it (hopefully Emily will be the informant, or the address will be the same as in 1901).

[crashmatt]

Thankyou Mary. I know for sure that Arthur had died as I remember his daughter telling me years ago. That also correlates to info gained from his Grandson. I totally agree about assumptions - there seems to many trees based on it. Which is a shame. I've got her marriage cert from her 2nd marriage which details her father William.
Kind Regards

[crashmatt]

This looks like Arthur's death:

Deaths Jun 1908
Horton Arthur 42 Wolverhampton 6b 345

although you really need the cert to confirm it (hopefully Emily will be the informant, or the address will be the same as in 1901).

Yes that is correct also

[Mary from Italy]

I was hoping to find the first marriage on the Wolverhampton and District parish registers site, but it doesn't seem to be there, and the Staffs/W. Mid BMD sites don't cover Wolverhampton.

http://www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/resources/indexes

http://www.westmidlandsbmd.org.uk/

http://www.staffordshirebmd.org.uk/

[Mary from Italy]

You'll find Arthur's burial details here:

http://www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/assets/userfiles/index.php?file=011647.pdf

[Mary from Italy]

Just for the benefit of anyone else who may be looking, they're mistranscribed as Harton in 1901.

[maudarby]

Just for the benefit of anyone else who may be looking, they're mistranscribed as Harton in 1901.

Did you also notice they were living in Heath Town? Same place as the baptism I found.
Moggie

[Christine in Herts]

There's a possible HORTON/NICHOLLS marriage in 1909q4 in Wolverhampton - where the groom would be Thomas Henry. I imagine that's the one for which you have a certificate.

I agree that the 1901 family and the 1911 are extraordinarily similar, especially as the two girls are (somewhat garbled) "step"-daughters (i.e. "Setp" and, possibly, "Sesp")

The 1911 PoB looks very specific. It's easy to imagine that the 1901 PoB is a result of Arthur not checking, and just putting her PoB as the same as his... or maybe the enumerator doing that.

I'd be inclined to suspect that Hull is the correct place. If you can get a copy of the Horton marriage record (photocopy of the marriage reg'r, rather than a cert, perhaps), there might be some clue about her heritage.

Christine

[Christine in Herts]

Just for the benefit of anyone else who may be looking, they're mistranscribed as Harton in 1901.

They're HORTON on FMP.

Christine

[Mary from Italy]

This is the Emily whose baptism Moggie found*, living in Prestwood Road, Heath Town in 1891:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=STSRG12_2239_2241-0611&fn=Emily&ln=Smith&st=d&ssrc=&pid=9604190

So far I haven't found a likely candidate born in Hull.

EDIT: Sorry, no it isn't, the age and mother's name are different from the baptism.

[Mary from Italy]

The 1911 PoB looks very specific. It's easy to imagine that the 1901 PoB is a result of Arthur not checking, and just putting her PoB as the same as his... or maybe the enumerator doing that.

Yes, that's what I was thinking, but I haven't found a suitable candidate yet.

[Mary from Italy]

This is the family that Moggie found in 1881*:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=STSRG11_2780_2784-0479&fn=Francis&ln=Smith&st=d&ssrc=&pid=19358557

Emily doesn't appear with the family, and according to the 1891 census she was 9, so born c. 1882.

This might be a possible birth:

Births Dec 1882
Smith Emily Cannock 6b 484

The Cannock RD includes Cheslyn Hay, the birthplace given in 1891.

However, the father of this Emily was an ag lab in 1881 and 1891, which doesn't make her a very good candidate.

* EDIT: Sorry, no it isn't, the age and mother's name are different from the baptism.

Will now pay more attention...

[crashmatt]

Hi all,
I am ever so grateful for all of your help so far. In reply to Christine - I have the original marr cert from her 1909 marriage to Nicholls.
I am (deep down) inclined to think that the 1911 Census is more accurate as it was filled in by the head of house and not an enumerator - but there's no details on her living in Hull. I dont understand - Why is it so hard to find a 'Coal mining Smith?'. I could get the Horton/Smith marriage cert - but I'm wondering what info I could learn that I haven't got on the Horton/Nicholls one. There seems to be a real jumble of census data on this one. :(. Again I truly appreciate all of your help. Thankyou!

[maudarby]

Hi all,
I am ever so grateful for all of your help so far. In reply to Christine - I have the original marr cert from her 1909 marriage to Nicholls.
I am (deep down) inclined to think that the 1911 Census is more accurate as it was filled in by the head of house and not an enumerator - but there's no details on her living in Hull. I dont understand - Why is it so hard to find a 'Coal mining Smith?'. I could get the Horton/Smith marriage cert - but I'm wondering what info I could learn that I haven't got on the Horton/Nicholls one. There seems to be a real jumble of census data on this one. :(. Again I truly appreciate all of your help. Thankyou!

Hi
You would get an address for her which you may be able to check in the 1901 for her parents & you might get some Smith witnesses.
Moggie

[Mary from Italy]

There is a possible here, but they're living in Kingswinford in 1881, which is a fair distance from Heath Town/Willenhall, and Emily was born in Brierley Hills, which doesn't fit with the baptism Moggie found:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=worrg11_2893_2896-0706&fn=Emily+A.&ln=Smith&st=d&ssrc=&pid=19855315

This is very irritating

I'm beginning to wonder if she gave the correct father's name when she got married.

[Mary from Italy]

Do you have her maiden name from a Nicholls child's birth certificate?

Might be worth getting the birth cert of May or Emily to see if she gives the same name.