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  • Can anyone help with my thoughts please?

    Hi I am starting to do some research on my mother in law's family and not knowing them is making it hard especially as my MIL didn't know her father! Right, here we go...

    Her father's name was Alfred Cross (a popular surname) and married Amelia Victoria Lawrence on 25th December 1915 in Stepney, London.

    Alfred died on 22nd September 1928 in Poplar, London age 32 years.

    So... I have a little bit of information but I am trying to find (a) his birth and (b) Alfred with his family on the 1901 census.

    On the 1901 census I have found a reference 13/313 which includes an Alfred with a father's name of Edward, same as on their marraige certificate. However, I haven't been able to find it again.

    The purpose of this long winded e mail is what do you think the possibilities are of this family be the right one on the census.

    Also, from free bmd I have looked for his birth and come up with three possibles.

    Dec 1893 Poplar Alfred
    March 1984 St Georges - Alfred Thomas
    Dec 1894 Popar - Alfred Thomas

    Hopefully I have laid this out so that it is clear but I would be interested to hear anyones thoughts. Thank you

  • #2
    Do you have access to Ancestry? (at home, at your local library, or at a nearby Family History Centre?)

    I'd have thought that those London events would mean that you'd get good results out of the LMA records there. Some of the baptism registers have DoBs included.

    That kind of info could help you narrow down your choices.

    If you are buying civil registration certificates, do make sure you pay only the basic fee (£9.25) by buying from official sources (GRO or a Local RO) and not through any kind of agent (where you're likely to pay at least three times as much as you need). You may know that already - but it's better to be made aware of this when it's not necessary than miss out on the info and pay through the nose!

    Christine
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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    • #3
      When you say you have found a reference 13/313 do you mean that you have seen the census? I haven't been able to find that on the 1901 but if you have got it, could you give the full reference please.

      The marriage cert is on Ancestry which I presume you've seen but at the date of marriage (25.12.1915) Alfred said he was 22 which would make him born about 1893.
      You said that his age at death in 1928 was 32 (born about 1896). FreeBMD says that the age was 34 which ties in more closely to the age at marriage.

      There is also a WW1 service record on Ancestry which says that his age at 15th December 1915 was 22.

      I'm really useless at working out dates but I think if the 22 and 34 ages are right he would have been born between 23rd Sept 1893 and 15th December 1893. That would at least rule out the Dec 1894 birth entry.

      Have you managed to find him on 1911 to find his place of birth? (I don't have a sub for that so I can't help I'm afraid)
      Last edited by Night Owl; 04-03-11, 22:42. Reason: Spelling
      Jackie

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      • #4
        There is an Alfred Cross on the 1911 born Poplar 1893, Father and mother Henry and Kate - does that tally ?

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        • #5
          Henry and Kate's Alfred Cross according to LMA born 5 October 1893 - that would tie in with the Dec 1893 Poplar entry in Poplar. They were living at 84 Grundy Street, which is where they were in 1911. It also ties in with the army record in 1915 - 84 Grundy Street has been crossed off and 194 St. Leonard's Road bromley has been inserted instead.

          You're saying that his father on his marriage certificate is called Edward, am a little confused at that one as all the other info tallies with Henry being his father but that might be a mistake on the registrar's part.
          Last edited by chrisj1961; 05-03-11, 01:54.

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          • #6
            What was Alfred's occupation and what was his father's - this will be shown on the marriage certificate. Also who are the witnesses?
            Do you know for sure that Alfred was born in London?
            Margaret
            Last edited by margaretmarch; 05-03-11, 08:44.

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            • #7
              Totally agree with Chris re Grundy Street address on Alfred's service records & baptism.Marriage cert however does give his father as Edward & not Henry. Alfred's occupation lighterman, Edward's occupation bootmaker. Witnesses James & Ellen Rosa Lawrence.
              Moggie

              Possible marriage for Henry & Kate (Hammond) at Poplar 30th June 1878.
              Henry's father also a Henry(bootmaker)
              Last edited by maudarby; 05-03-11, 09:14.

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              • #8
                Morning one and all, thanks for your late night and early morning suggestions. I can confirm:

                The reference on the census is RG13/313 - I can't see another reference what sort of thing should I be looking for? I still have not been able to recall this on ancestry but fortunately I took a copy!

                The names of the witnesses on the marriage certificate are James Lawrence (the bride's father) and Ellen Rose Lawrence (again assume member of bride's family). Occupations of both groom's father and bride's father is bootmaker and this ties in with the census which says boot laster, I think.

                Alfred's occupation on the marriage certificate was Lighterman and also on the death certificate.

                I haven't looked at the WW1 records yet but will do.

                So I have a marriage in Stepney and a death in Poplar and there are three births available two in Poplar and one in St Georges. I do not know the area so assume they are all quite close, does anyone know?

                Thanks for all of your help so far and any other suggestions welcome.

                Thanks

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                • #9
                  and another thought. There is an an Alfred in the Henry and Kate family and an Alfred in a family with a father named as Edward so is the Alfred found in the WW1 records the Alfred from Henry and Kate as the family address was the same and not my Alfred? What do you think?

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                  • #10
                    The Alfred in the service records gives his birthplace as Poplar. The Grundy St address has been crossed out & replaced with 194 St Leonards Rd Bromley.His wife is given as Amelia with the date of marriage & it also lists 2 children.
                    Moggie

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                    • #11
                      SORRY - Ignore that- he is Albert nor Alfred - I was rushing :o

                      I wonder if this is the Albert you found with father Edward? Though Edward isn't a bootmaker, he is a Clerk C/C merchants, whatever that is. The reference is RG13; Piece: 1604; Folio: 116; Page: 25 though, which is not the one you gave.

                      http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...9173114&recoff=
                      Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 05-03-11, 10:21.
                      Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                      • #12
                        Thank you Maudarby - just looked at the war record and as you say it all ties up. The two boys are twins and were the first born followed by another boy and then just after his death my MIL was born. She didn't know Alfred so hencce why we have so little information. Amelia moved on very quickly to the next man in her life with several more to follow!

                        So still to concentrate on the birth certificate and decide which certificate to send for!

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                        • #13
                          I have just looked at my printed census record of RG 13/313 (I don't know what other reference to quote!) and it is James Lawrence married toMartha with a son called calbert. I think i have got myself into a bit of a pickle with my James/Edwards/Henrys. I need to go away and group and decide what I have found and what I have done wrong! Be back soon.....

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                          • #14
                            I would have thought the Dec 1893 would be the most likely. He doesn't give a second name on his marriage.
                            Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                            • #15
                              I know that Watermen have substantial City of London records - is that true also of Lightermen?

                              Christine
                              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Gill D View Post
                                I have just looked at my printed census record of RG 13/313 (I don't know what other reference to quote!) <snip> Be back soon.....
                                "RG 13/313" is the initial piece of info - the RG13 refers to the 1901 census, and the 313 is the "piece" number - which covers an area. After that is a "folio" number (the sheets/leaves - folios - of paper in a "piece" are numbered in sequence), a folio has two sides, so there's also the page number. If you have the correct page number, the folio number is almost redundant.

                                I stored only that much info, to start with, when carefully recording sources of my info. It didn't take me long to realise that you also needed the folio and page numbers to back-track on something that needed checking - especially if you were looking in a built-up area.

                                Christine
                                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                                • #17
                                  thanks Christine. I shall note that in future. The copy that I printed out definitely does not have any other info that I can see! There is a page number 35 at the top right hand corner and slightly to the right of the page is no. 22. Thank you

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                                  • #18
                                    Hi I have had another thought. Does anyone know where I can find the banns for the marriage of alfred cross and amelia lawrence in 1915 as this may give some additional information that could be of use to me please?

                                    Thank you

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                                    • #19
                                      The actual marriage register is in the LMA marriage records on Ancestry (perhaps you already have that). Amelia mucked up her signature - she started off signing Amelia V. Lawrence then altered it to Amelia Victoria. Do you have the fathers' names and occupations (both were bootmakers)?
                                      Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                                      • #20
                                        Hi Uncle John - Alfred's father was Edward according to the marraige certificate and Amelia's was James. On the marriage certificate they are both down as bootmakers. I wondered if there was any other info that could be linked back to either family. the witness for groom was James Lawrence (the bridge's father) and the other witness was Ellen Rose Lawrence, haven't worked out who she is. My main interest is Alfred and trying to see if I can find them on the 1901census unsuccessfully so far.

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