joseph sanders death?

[darannon]

I hope someone can help me with a longstanding puzzle in my family tree. My 2xgreat grandfather was born as joseph brook in 1836 in exbourne, devon (I have his baptism). His mother was agnes brook, and in july 1837 she married lawrence sanders, a miller. The baptism doesn't record a father for joseph, but after the marriage he is listed on census and certificates as joseph brook sanders. This couple went on to have 12 children, some with brook as a middle name, but not all. THey moved to lifton, devon in the 1840's and lived at leat mills. Joseph isn't at home in 1861, and i haven't found him elsewhere. However, he is back at leat mills in 1865 for the birth of his first known child Clara Agnes. His wife is lydia seiffert, a german lady (no marriage record found). By the time their second child (also called joseph brook) is born, they are living at springfield terrace in fulham, and have a servant. Their last known child (my g.grandmother) is lydia brook sanders, born 1875 while they are still in fulham. I have her a record of her smallpox vaccination, which says she was taken to the doctor by her father.
But by 1881 lydia senior and junior are living in a room in mile end, london and lydia says she is a widow. Joseph jnr is in cornwall with his aunt, mary wise, and clara is also lodging in mile end.
SO - where did joseph go? I have searched for a death, under sanders and saunders, in devon and london, with no luck. A lot of his siblings emigrated to ontario, canada, but i have found no trace of him there either. I would also love to know where he was in 1861, and did he really marry lydia
Sorry it's such a long post, I hope someone can help me. Thanks
Darannon

[Loopy Linda in La La Land]

Hi,

Are you sure the 1881 one is the correct Lydia?

On 1871 it says she was born in Germany on 1881 it says Brazil, South America?

Linda

[darannon]

yes i was puzzled by that, but that is the only entry that has a lydia and lydia together, and the ages match - and clara (transcribed as clare) is also in mile end. Also lydia remarries in mile end and clara is the witness. And lydia junior stayed in mile end until her death in 1899. When i found josephs siblings in canada i really thought he had run off to there, but if he did he must have changed his name - he has brothers in ontario who lived till there 80's, but no sign of him.

[Loopy Linda in La La Land]

That's very confusing isn't it? I'll have another look.....but Germany and Brazil!!!! Doi you know where Laurance went as he is with them on 1871 but I can't seem to find him after that?

Linda

[Loopy Linda in La La Land]

Also it says the junior Lydia is a Naturalized British Subject. Which surely means she was born abroad???

Linda

[darannon]

the whole thing has had me puzzled for years, but i recently decided to look at it all again
I agree with you about naturalized british subject, and that germany and brazil are nowhere near each other, but i have lydia's birth certificate (mmn seiffert, which sounds german) and she was born in fulham. I can't think of any reason why they would give such inaccurate info to the census, but I do think I have the right people.

Lawrence sanders jnr went to canada, got married and had a child - the child reappears in america but i lost track of lawrence and his wife.
I wish i knew how joseph had met and married lydia - i can't find him in 1861 so i have long wondered if he went to germany for work and then brought her back after they married - in 1871 she says she was born in leipzig, kingdom of saxony.

Something drastic must have happened between 1875 and 1881 - to go from a house in fulham with a servant, to a rented room in the east end - either joseph left them (he already had brothers in canada then) or he did die and i'm not looking in the right place

Thanks for your help so far

[Christine in Herts]

There's this Baptism in the right date-range in Germany - though not in Saxony:
15 Oct 1842 ~ Lydia SEIFFERT ~ d/o Wilhelm SEIFFERT & Johanna JAHN ~ EVANGELISCH, Langenberg Rheinland, Rheinland, PRUSSIA [K98975-3]

I have had people give quite divergent answers for PoB - perhaps her parents had emigrated to Brazil by that date?

Christine

[darannon]

Thanks christine I will keep a note of that baptism - unfortunately with no marriage record so far, I don't have the name of lydia's father to check this against. Where did you find german records?

[Christine in Herts]

There are quite a lot of German records on the IGI. As with any record , you'd want to follow it up with a look at the original - but it's a clue to a likely starting point.

https://www.familysearch.org/

Christine

[bcbrit]

Gosh, I seem to recall either this or something very similar on another forum a couple of years back.

Try looking for Joseph under Saunders, and also check out the States. Many people went to and from Canada and the USA as a matter of course. No real border and no Homeland Security then - lol.

I will try and see if I can find this in the other forum.

bcbrit

[bcbrit]

Did Lawrence b. abt 1849 have a son Charles ?

I have found a L B Sanders b. England age 56 in the 1906 Manitoba census.

In the 1911 Manitoba census there is an Agnes Sanders married, with a son Charles b. Jan 1888.

In the 1916 Manitoba Agnes Saunders is widowed , with son Charles.

I noticed that there was an Ontario marriage for a Richard B. Sanders with parents Lawrence Sanders and Agnes Brock.

If this is the correct Larence/Agnes then Larence died between 1911 and 1916.

I can't seem to access the other forum archives, but will keep trying.

bcbrit

[kylejustin]

there is quite a bit on the igi for western germany: hanover, saxony, wurtemburg, even a little for berlin which is in the east. if you have rellies for prussia, well, that is in modern poland mostly, and the records are not german anymore.

[darannon]

hi bc brit - i did post about the sanders family in general on another forum a couple of years ago and you were very helpful with canadian records (: Now I have ancestry worldwide for 6 months and i've been looking at it all again, but getting no further with joseph brook sanders, either snr or jnr - snr i have up to 1875 in fulham, jnr was in cornwall with his aunt mary ann wise in 1881. The wises and a lot of sanders siblings went to canada in the 1870's and 80's but i have found no trace of josephs with them. Or any likely deaths, and i have looked under saunders as well. The other sanders siblings mostly stayed in canada and i have lots of bmd info for them and their offspring - luckily they went to ontario and the records there are great for detail (: A few went on to michigan, and I have been able to keep up with most of them. But the two josephs, whether home or abroad, living or dead, well they just don't want to be found. They are either mistranscribed or changed their names. It's just one of those brick walls i would love to break down (: