At wits end with Great Grandad!!

[Sue Dobbs]

My great grandfather JAMES HATCH, born about 1863/64, probably Islington but maybe not. I have him in the 1891 Census living with his wife Mary Ann (Henderson) in Norman Road, Islington. I have a copy of their marriage certificate and I know I have correct one in 1891. I can find no trace in 1881 and in 1871 there is a James Hatch aged 7 as a "visitor" at Litchfield (?sp) Terrace, Islington but no parents around. I have been carefully eliminating all the James Hatch's I can that were born around that time by tracing them through the census and if in 1891 then I know they can't be my James as I have him already with his wife. My great grandfather James's father was also names James (from his marriage cert but shown as dec'd) - I have found a father and son both named Joseph James (b 1863 Islington Apr-Jun 1b 242, 1863: address 4 Wellington Road and born 1832) but would they both have dropped the Joseph and just be called James (even on death certs)??

ANY help or suggestions would be most welcomed, have been trying for a few years with this, expanded my tree in all directions for all other lines but can't get on with my own maiden line!

Grateful thanks

[Sunny Rosy]

How about James Hatch born islington 1863 on the 1881 living Islington with parents Joseph and Mary and siblings.
Joseph 46
Mary A 39
Mary A 19
Thomas 19
Matilda 14
Edwin 12
Joseph 10,
James 8
Elizabeth 5
Harriet 3
George 1 living at 4 Maude Tce, Brandon Road, Islington

[Darksecretz]

Hello Sue,

welcome to Family Tree Forum, you dont mention who the witness' were on the marriage cert, were they family members? maybe a brother or sister to James?

It is quite possible that they 'dropped' the Joseph, maybe to avoid confusion they were Joseph and James, (Joseph being the father.) it might be though that they didnt like the name so didnt bother using it.

[Darksecretz]

I have found a baptism for a Joseph James HATCH, 07 June 1863 at St. Luke, West Holloway, Mdx. to parents Joseph James HATCH and Amelia, fathers occ Labourer. address, 4 wellington road,

[Darksecretz]

IF Amelia was your James' mum this might be why you cannot find him with his parents

DEATH
Name: Amelia Hatch
Year of Registration: 1864
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Islington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 186

[Darksecretz]

I have found a possible for James/Amelia on the 1871 Census.

Joseph Hatch 36 occ plasterer, b. Bloomsbury
Aurelia Hatch 43 (Should be Amelia)

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...ki1871&indiv=1

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 88; Folio: 90; Page: 52; GSU roll: 824585

[Darksecretz]

there is also a marriage for Joseph James HATCH and an Amelia THORN

Name: Joseph James Hatch
Spouse: Amelia Thorn
Father: Joseph Hatch
Birth: abt 1830
Marriage: 13 Apr 1857 - Tower Hamlets, Middlesex

[Sue Dobbs]

How about James Hatch born islington 1863 on the 1881 living Islington with parents Joseph and Mary and siblings.
Joseph 46
Mary A 39
Mary A 19
Thomas 19
Matilda 14
Edwin 12
Joseph 10,
James 8
Elizabeth 5
Harriet 3
George 1 living at 4 Maude Tce, Brandon Road, Islington

Thanks, but this one is born 1873 and mine is 1863/64, so frustrating

[Sue Dobbs]

Darksecretz:

Thank you, I do already have all that information but I can't say hand on heart without proof that Joseph James is actually James and I have run out of ideas on how to "prove" it! I am wondering whther a professional could do any better?

The witnesses on wedding certificate (1890) are Louisa Adams and Ann Press. One of my James' daughters is called Louisa and another Charlotte Amelia but this all may just be co-incidence.

Still looking for light at the end of the tunnel

Sue

[Darksecretz]

Hi Sue,

what was James' (and his fathers) occupation on the marriage cert? have you looked for marriages for Louisa HATCH to an ADAMS and an Ann HATCH to a PRESS? these could be married sisters to James. do you know if James served in the Army? do his papers give a NOK? did he leave a will? what about his obit in the paper, this might show other family members that you are unaware of.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Darksecretz:

Thank you, I do already have all that information but I can't say hand on heart without proof that Joseph James is actually James and I have run out of ideas on how to "prove" it! I am wondering whther a professional could do any better?

The witnesses on wedding certificate (1890) are Louisa Adams and Ann Press. One of my James' daughters is called Louisa and another Charlotte Amelia but this all may just be co-incidence.

Still looking for light at the end of the tunnel

Sue

A "professional" will only have access to the same online resources as FTF members.

Jay

[Uncle John]

A "professional" will only have access to the same online resources as FTF members.

Who can usually apply a much wider range of experience and lateral thinking. We do have agents in all parts of the world (nearly said Empire!!).

[Darksecretz]

oooh there is an Anny HATCH marrying a Walter PRESS.. 1872 march q. Pancras 1b 196

[SussexPat]

1881 census
Walter Press 30 carman
Annie 28
Walter 8
Annie 6
Ada 5
Martha 3
James 1
All born Pancras, living at 42 Drummond Cres, London, Middx

[Sue Dobbs]

oooh there is an Anny HATCH marrying a Walter PRESS.. 1872 march q. Pancras 1b 196

I know, found them last night after you suggested following the witness lead BUT and it's a big BUT!! Can I now assume my James is related to these Hatches just because Ann Press was witness?. He had his father down as James Hatch Deceased but I am not too worried about that. My grand father had Alexander Hatch down as his Dad on his wedding cert and Alex was his brother (his Dad, my great grandfather James died 1909!)?

What do you good people think?

[SussexPat]

I think - most probably Annie Hatch/Press was James' sister. Hatch is not exactly a common name for it just to be a coincidence and more likely to have a sister than a cousin as a witness.

The next step would be to try and find Annie Hatch on the 1871 and 1861 census. I don't have a subscription to anything so can only help with 1881. I'm wondering if Hatch has been mistranscribed.
Good luck.

[Darksecretz]

According to Anny HATCHs marriage her father was Thomas HATCH a carman see below:



so it might be a cousin..

[SussexPat]

I didn't look carefully enough at the 1881 census!
Living at the SAME ADDRESS as Walter and Annie Press
Thomas Hatch 63 carman
Sarah 60
Polly 36 gen dom serv
Martha 18 box maker

There is a marriage for Thomas Hatch and Sarah Smith 15 Sep 1839 Holborn Middx (from familysearch)
Groom's father Joseph Hatch
Brides father John Smith

[SussexPat]

Also
in the St Pancras district there is a marriage for Sarah Hatch and David Stuckey 10 Aug 1845.

In 1881 Sarah and David Stuckey have two lodgers James Hatch 22 and Thomas Hatch 14, living at 88 Georges Street, London

All these are worth following up through the census as there is a good probability that they are related to your James and may help you find him in other census.

[Sue Dobbs]

I didn't look carefully enough at the 1881 census!
Living at the SAME ADDRESS as Walter and Annie Press
Thomas Hatch 63 carman
Sarah 60
Polly 36 gen dom serv
Martha 18 box maker

There is a marriage for Thomas Hatch and Sarah Smith 15 Sep 1839 Holborn Middx (from familysearch)
Groom's father Joseph Hatch
Brides father John Smith

I had checked 1871 and 1881 census for Thomas Hatch and his children and James does not appear on any of them. Thomas died 1884. James would be a year younger than his sister Martha (on 1881 census b abt 1863) - James abt 1864. She doesn't appear on the 1871 census either so I wonder where she (and possibly James were?) - maybe the James I found in 1871 is my James after all and is just staying at a friends! I think my head will explode soon if I don't sort this out!

Sue