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Any ideas of other ways to find this man?

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  • Any ideas of other ways to find this man?

    Hi,

    I can't find much info on my great-grandfather, and I am really hoping someone will have an idea that I could try. His name is Birt Jones.

    1) On my grandfather's birth certificate in January 1917, he is listed as: Birt JONES. Coal Hewer.

    2) I have found his marriage certificate from June 1916: 12 June 1916 Registry Office, Westbury on Severn, Gloucester.
    Birt JONES, age 21, Bachelor. Collier. Morse Road, Drybrook. Father John JONES, Collier.
    Mary COOPEY, age 18, spinster. Morse Road. No father given (but I have found her father, it is Tom Cook Mansell)
    Witnesses were the mark of John Jones, and Jno J Carefield.
    Herbert H S Morse, Deputy Registrar and Maurice F Carter Sup. Registrar.

    3) On my grandfather's marriage certificate in August 1942, he is listed as Herbert Jones, deceased, Mine Worker.

    I am trying to go back and find Birt's birth and then his family. I thought I'd start with the census' but I've searched the 1901 (and 1911) census but I can't find any families that look even remotely right.

    Can anyone see any that I'm missing?

    Many thanks
    Rachel

  • #2
    I am struggling to find a birth for a Jones with MMN as Coopey in 1917 Rachel. Are you sure you have the right family or has you Gt grandmothers name been mistranscribed?
    Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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    • #3
      Hi Chrissie,

      I didn't mention that bit, sorry. I was trying to avoid info-overload, but it probably would have helped to mention it, what an idiot sorry.

      My grandfather's birth certificate, Jan 1917, lists father as Birt Jones, mother as Mary Jones, formerly Mansell. Now, I couldn't find a marriage for a Mary Mansell and Birt Jones, but I did find a a marriage between Birt Jones and Mary Coopey. There was no father listed for her. I did some searching and I think Mary Coopey and Mary Mansell are the same person; she was born as Mary Coopey because her parents (Sarah Coopey and Tom Cook Mansell) weren't married until a couple of months after her birth. Her siblings were all <first name> Mansell, and so I presume that she was known generally as Mary Mansell other than when she was married in the register office. I am so annoyed she didn't list her father, but I am fairly confident that this is what happened.

      Regards
      Rachel

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      • #4
        on freebmd the only birth with jones as father and mother as mansell is Thomas J in March 1917 in westbury area. maybe birt was a nickname? J for Jelbert maybe?
        Angelina

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        • #5
          Have you considered on the 1901 census, Berty Jones, father John a pit worker in East Dean Gloucestershire?

          There is a birth of a Bertie Jones, Q2 1895, Westbury on S on FreeBMD.

          On the 1911 census this Bertie is with his father John and both are colliers living near Westbury on Severn. In fact they are living in Morse Road!!!

          Anne
          Last edited by Anne in Carlisle; 24-01-11, 14:16.

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          • #6
            only other thing i can think of is to try the historical directories and hope they didnt move out of the area.
            did your grandfather have any siblings - maybe see what their birth certificates say the fathers name is?
            hope you get it sorted.
            Angelina

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            • #7
              Thanks girls, much appreciated.

              Anne - I've just noticed that family, someone on the forest of dean website pointed me in that direction so I'll follow it up. Is there any way I can actually link the Birt Jones I have getting married, with the Bertie Jones here, other than seeing that all the facts match?

              Angelina - I haven't got the birth certificates of my grandfather's siblings (cost :-( ) but BMD has them as Stanley H Jones, born 1920 (MMN Coopey) and Gwendoline E M Coopey born 1924 (MMN Coopey). It might turn out that I have to have these 2 certs, but it will have to wait as we are in financial ruin at the moment - once my current subs to FMP/Anc ends I'm not renewing them for a year or so - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah :-(.

              Thanks again, I really am grateful.

              Regards
              Rachel x

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Rachandgarry View Post
                Anne - I've just noticed that family, someone on the forest of dean website pointed me in that direction so I'll follow it up. Is there any way I can actually link the Birt Jones I have getting married, with the Bertie Jones here, other than seeing that all the facts match?
                There didn't seem too many candidates with a father John and both of them colliers. Also the fact that they lived in Morse Road in 1911 is a good clue, I would have thought. I can send you the image if you cannot access it, just pm me.

                Anne

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                • #9
                  Thanks Anne, I can see the image (for the next 8 weeks I have my full subscription I am going to be devastated to give it up waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh)

                  I'm so suspicious and worried that I'm going to base my research on the wrong person, I sometimes over-work queries. Do you think it is a fairly safe bet? I guess the fact that the dates tie up, places tie up and occupations tie up makes the Birt/Bertie thing an acceptable anomaly? If so, then a great big woohooooo!!!!!!

                  Thanks
                  Rachel

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                  • #10
                    If you have access to the 1911 census why not try looking all along Morse Road? Maybe that would give you some clues?

                    I know what you mean about being careful - with a name like Jones it is very difficult. Also the name Birt is open to all sorts of alternative names.

                    Why not gather together the new info and ask what everyone thinks about the liklihood of it being the right one?

                    Anne

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                    • #11
                      Ooh I hadn't thought of looking along Morse Road.... I don't always think outside the box. (ok, I hardly ever think outside the box!)... thanks for the suggestions :-)

                      Rachel x

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                      • #12
                        Rachel

                        My brother Bob brought this to my attention, I will tell you what I know.

                        Mary was my Aunt Mary, my mum was Olive Wilks, nee Mansell.

                        Aunty Mary was the matriarch figure in our family when I grew up, being my mums eldest sister (she often said Mary was like a mother to her when she was small). She lived in Staines, Middlesex when I was small, and had been there for many years. I can remember going there on holiday in the early sixties/ late fifties from the Forest. She seemed to have done quite well to end up owning a large detached house there, by whatever means. Her and my mum wrote to each other every week.

                        My mum was born in 1915, and only had one recollection of her father (Tom) lifting her high above his head. He died in 1918 in South Wales in the flu epidemic, presumably working down there as a miner. My brother Bob traced this.

                        One other sister drowned down a well.

                        What I believe is the case is that when Tom died my mums mother remarried a Joe Coopey not long after. I do not think it was happy families thereafter. There were two other sisters (Rose, Elma), and possibly brothers also (Farmer and Cal ?). Rose gassed herself at some point. There was another family involved in all this (Aldington) but not quite sure how. Joe Coopey was responsible for a half sister called Lil, who was a character.

                        I am not sure when my Mums mum died, but I do know that Aunty Mary went to live in London under duress taking her son Stan with her, he never married. I was never aware that there was an elder brother called Thomas. Aunty Mary called herself Mary Jones. Stan had a green Morris 1100 that he doted on in the mid sixties. Aunty Mary must have gone to London in the mid to late twenties. We called Stan 'Uncle Stan' albeit he was my cousin. He was about 46 when England won the cup in 1966.

                        I suspect the Birt Jones/ Mary Coopey marriage might be a red herring. Her surname would not have been Coopey at that time (1916).

                        Mary later had a boy Frank as a love child I believe (a great laugh, proper London wide boy) and he had a football pitch irrigation business. His wife was called Audrey (nice lady) who loved gardening in our garden and they had two boys my age (David and Stephen). Mary also had a girl Gwen who became a GI bride and went to live in New Orleans. We lost contact with her after hurricane Katrina.

                        I believe Aunty Mary died in about 1980, and my mum died in January 1984.

                        It is odd that your grandfather, who was only 3 or 4 years older than Stan, ended up in London as well, but I have no handed down tales of him from anybody. Perhaps he was given up by a very young Mary to another near family to be raised, this was nothing unusual.

                        Everybody gets to an age when they need to do this ancestry business, and the truth is rarely that palatable. There is no such thing as original sin, and it has all happened before. Don't take it personally, we all had no control over their lives.

                        Regards

                        Andy Wilks

                        PS

                        If I establish any more fact I will let you know.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hello Andy and welcome to the Forum,

                          The poster of this thread has not been actively posting here since 2011 but you can send a personal message by clicking on the members Username and it will offer a drop down box where you can select send a private message and if their e mail address is still current they should get a message from you.
                          Good Luck

                          Edna

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                          • #14
                            Hi folks

                            Andy - thanks, this is dynamic stuff and I can't wait to get it all straight in my head. Would you be interested in contact by e-mail? :-) I tried to write the following in a pm but my pm's are broken, so I can't get any or send any at the moment :-(

                            I am gobsmacked at the volume of information you have. Only now you've mentioned them do I remember Frank and Audrey and their sons. It is all such a long time ago for me, and I have a terrible memory at the best of times lol. My Grandad was always known as Tim, I am very surprised that he wasn't involved in your life - Stan, Gwen and Frank were all involved in ours.

                            I would love to speak to you more about this - do you have any contact with any of these people still? Where are you from?

                            Trying to work out what relationship you are to me or my mum. I guess you would be my mum's cousin? I need to find out more about Thomas' father I think. (God knows how!) Has your Bob ever managed to find much about the Forest? I understand that the Mansells were methodists so I'm having trouble finding records and graves etc.

                            Edna - luckily my e-mail is still the same, so I got notification anyway but thanks for posting that - its nice to know people care enough to point things like that out. :-)

                            Regards
                            Rachel x
                            Last edited by Rachandgarry; 10-10-13, 10:24. Reason: couldn't pm

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