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  • Army ''speak''

    I have finally after a long time found records of my gr grandfather in the Army Service Corps.
    I cant read some of it but i will persevere with that. I just have a couple of questions.
    Under complexion at the beginning it says Dark Brown and towards the end it says Brown.
    Can anyone tell if this is their way of saying dual heritage. He states he was born in Liverpool in 1850.
    At one stage he deserted for a month and there was a trial. Is there anywhere I can read about this.
    The reference is WO97/4223/112 and I found it on Find My Past.
    Thank you
    Ann

  • #2
    Not sure about the army, but looking through the 19th century newspapers there are plenty of examples of 'brown complexion' without any suggestion of mixed-race in the article (mainly court reports). There are plenty of labourers, hawkers and sailors thus described. Perhaps they were sun-tanned working outside all the time (the word sun-tan was not used until the beginning of the 20th century OED).
    Last edited by keldon; 24-01-11, 10:41.
    Phil
    historyhouse.co.uk
    Essex - family and local history.

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    • #3
      Thank you Phil. It could have been that he had been working as a labourer, I dont know, as I cant find him before his army service at the age of 24

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      • #4
        That's interesting.
        I would have said that 'ruddy' would be the description of someone with a 'weathered' face and my first reaction on reading your question was to think it meant mixed race or maybe Mediterranean. People with very dark hair often have olive skin tone and the darker end of that spectrum would be almost brown.
        Margaret

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Golden Oldie View Post
          I have finally after a long time found records of my gr grandfather in the Army Service Corps.
          I cant read some of it but i will persevere with that. I just have a couple of questions.
          Under complexion at the beginning it says Dark Brown and towards the end it says Brown.
          Can anyone tell if this is their way of saying dual heritage. He states he was born in Liverpool in 1850.
          At one stage he deserted for a month and there was a trial. Is there anywhere I can read about this.
          The reference is WO97/4223/112 and I found it on Find My Past.
          Thank you
          Ann

          Ann, try the forum on this site

          The World War Forum (Page 1) for help in researching Military Personnel and Relatives or Allied Armed Forces for all countries that served in the two Wars.


          Nina

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Golden Oldie View Post
            Thank you Phil. It could have been that he had been working as a labourer, I dont know, as I cant find him before his army service at the age of 24
            Would you be prepared to give his name ? - there must be very many 'sleuths' on FTF that would relish the challenge !

            Nina

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            • #7
              Thank you all for your comments and help.
              Nina I do not have a problem with giving his name. It is Richard Wynn or Wynne. Born abt 1850 in Liverpool.The first record I have is joining the army in 1874.
              I feel there is something not quite right about him and maybe that is why I cant find him. He married in 1880 and says his father was John Wynne deceased, a shoemaker.
              I have been searching for a couple of years now and any help is appreciated
              Ann

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              • #8
                Very often some Irish people are described as having a dark complexion - I only mention this because the only John Winn/Wynne that I can find, occupation Boot and Shoe Maker was born in Ireland abt.1807-1812.

                The 1851 census shows him as being born in Ireland abt.1812

                In 1861 as Winn, he is lodging at Dryden Street, Liverpool. age 54. Occupation Boot and Shoe Maker.there is no Richard or any family with him. He is shown as unmarried - but hey ! maybe he left home

                His age maybe suspect but is within +-5
                Last edited by Inahaystack; 30-01-11, 01:46.

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                • #9
                  I think they would have used a much coarser word to describe someone of mixed race back then, when there were no niceties to be observed.

                  I think dark brown complexion probably meant just that - dark brown. However, if he was your ggf, I would expect that any "mixed race" would be obvious (ish) in his descendants.

                  OC

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                  • #10
                    I recall that whilst watching a program on TV that Liverpool was also a Slave port.. maybe this is something to consider?
                    Julie
                    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                    .......I find dead people

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                    • #11
                      The 1851 Census shows Richard Wyne (2months)b Liverpool, with parents John 39 and Catherine 34....... John is shown as being a labourer born in Ireland, their abode is 3 Court,4 Llewellyn Street Toxteth
                      This is the Richard that Golden Oldie is hoping is her elusive g.grandfather.-

                      1851 Class: HO107; Piece: 2188; Folio: 136; Page: 33; GSU roll: 87195


                      In 1861 there is a John, Boot and shoemaker, lodging but no family members with him, here -Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 2651; Folio: 18; Page: 34; GSU roll: 543006.
                      http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...=18&h=23961697

                      Also in 1861
                      there is a John, forge labourer with wife Catherine, but no Richard here - Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 2706; Folio: 45; Page: 26; GSU roll: 543016.
                      Last edited by Inahaystack; 30-01-11, 14:44.

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                      • #12
                        Thanks to you all. You have given me things to work on. I never even gave Ireland a thought.
                        Ann

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                        • #13
                          Have you got Richard on the 1881 ?

                          I read Richards service records - what an interesting chappie at least we know his father was a John, be interesting to find out for sure who his mother was as she is noted as Ann (maybe she was Catherine Ann?)

                          Nina

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post
                            I recall that whilst watching a program on TV that Liverpool was also a Slave port.. maybe this is something to consider?
                            Liverpool was the Slave trading City, but really it was the people behind the slave trade and shipping magnets that were in Liverpool not the slaves themselves, They were mostly taken to places like America and The many plantations to work for their Masters, not Liverpool, although a few may have filtered through with Families thay worked for.
                            As it was a seafaring Port there were many Nationalities settled in Liverpool to make a diversity of Cultures, but Liverpool was in the main Irish and Welsh Settlers, and with the ships from Scotland and Cumberland also coming to Liverpool many UK settlers too, as in my own Ancestors.

                            Edna

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                            • #15
                              In response to Nina, I do have Richard on the 1881 census in the Army camp in Aldershot. I love your comment that he was an interesting chappie. I wish someone had been here when I was first reading it all. Jailed for theft, then desertion and I wont even mention his medical history.
                              I dont think the 1851 census is the right Richard. I am sure that this is the one that I followed through in great detail, very proud of myself and then found this Richard married someone else.
                              I am going to look at the John on the 1861 in more detail. He could be the father and Richard was maybe illegitimate. Nothing would surprise me now.
                              Thank you for your help
                              Ann

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