Can't find a marriage....any help or advice...?

[MrStephen]

I have two ancestors; Thomas Forsyth b.c.1811 in Scotland and his wife Elizabeth born between 1813 and 1816 in Mold, Wales. They have kids Thomas (b.c.1835 Mold), William (1839 Liverpool), Mary (1840 Liverpool), and Elizabeth (1843 Liverpool).

Now, one would expect a marriage between Thomas and Elizabeth in either Mold (or environs) or Liverpool, but the only one I can find - Thomas *Foresight* at that! - is in Manchester in 1831. Can anyone find anything closer...?

Regards,

Stephen

[garstonite]

having just trawled through lan-opc and familysearch.....I have to say the one you have found in 1831 is the only likely I can find also....allan
found a Thomas Forsyth born 1835 Liverpool in 1881 census....how do you know your William was born in Mold ??...1851 census ?
Williams birth and christening are on familysearch.......allan

[Lindsay]

Have you got on of the children's birth certs to confirm Elizabeth's maiden name?

[Darksecretz]

I would say that marriage is highly probable, you have to rememeber that alot of people couldnt spell so therefore people had to write it how they said it, who was to say it was wrong? the same way as you can say Jones/Johnes/Joans/ Brown/Broown/Browne/Brune they all sound the same but have different spellings.

Agree that also buying one of the childrens birth certs will confirm the parentage too,

you have to remember to think outside the box when looking at records :D

[MrStephen]

Allan - thanks for the info re: William. I'd not expected to find data post-1837 on familysearch, so cheers for that! I know Thomas was born in Mold thanks to the 1851 census, although by 1861/71/81 he states he was born in Liverpool. Confusing!

Lindsay - I sent off for William's birth cert earlier today in order to find Elizabeth's name.

[MrStephen]

Julie - I am used to thinking outside the box when it comes to genealogy, but I've never had to think quite as much outside of it before! Normally things match up a little more than this. For example, the Thomas b1835 states for 30 years that he was born in Liverpool, when the actuality seems to be that he was born in Mold. One doesn't, of course, want to make too many assumptions, because then one gets such awful doubts about whether what one is finding is good information or not!

[Darksecretz]

there are alot of records on familysearch that are post 1837, mainly pre 1837 but using the pliot site, (which is now being called the beta version) alot of records on it.. and more are being added, it is a great source and other info is being added all the time.

[MrStephen]

Julie - thanks for that. Must admit that I'm still finding my feet on the new FS site. It can get quite confusing at times!

[Darksecretz]

Julie - thanks for that. Must admit that I'm still finding my feet on the new FS site. It can get quite confusing at times!

Yes I quite agree, I knew where I was with The original familysearch site and the Pilot site, but the aim at the moment is for the LDS to get ALL of their records on the one site under one roof if you get me, I just wish that they had thought abit more about the search function and added more bits to get it refined/fine tune the results. (maybe its just me and i'll get used to it?)

[MrStephen]

Well, the certificate arrived...and it all fits together perfectly!

William Forsyth was born 1839 at Bolton Street (where the family are in 1841). His parents were Thomas Forsyth and Elizabeth Forsyth (nee Williams). And who does their elder son live with in 1841? Why, it's an elderly Mr. and Mrs. Williams on New Street in Mold!

However...try as I might, I can't find a marriage for Thomas Forsyth and Elizabeth Williams!

Grr...there are always missing pieces, aren't there...?

[kylejustin]

could be she was a widow at marriage. my ancestor mary pratt married george harker in 1853. he died poss in america, as their daughter was born there. mary remarried to john coates in 1857, and on the kids birth certs there is no mention she was a harker.

[Fuzzy]

Hi,

Have you tried looking way past the birth of any children?

I had a family living in Bristol, first child born in Bristol,

Then they were in Kent where next two children were born

Then they move to Brighton another child is born

they then end up in London where the final children are born

they get married 11 years after the last child is born!!

they dont make it easy for us do they??!! LOL

[Christine in Herts]

Well I found a potential marriage on N Wales BMD - except that it's not until 1877 in Wrexham! Thomas FORSYTH marries Eliza (sic) WILLIAMS. It seems unlikely to be yours: just too many discrepancies.

Besides - the marriage ought to be before 1835?

Christine

[Darksecretz]

Hi,

Have you tried looking way past the birth of any children?

I had a family living in Bristol, first child born in Bristol,

Then they were in Kent where next two children were born

Then they move to Brighton another child is born

they then end up in London where the final children are born

they get married 11 years after the last child is born!!

they dont make it easy for us do they??!! LOL

Well I found a potential marriage on N Wales BMD - except that it's not until 1877 in Wrexham! Thomas FORSYTH marries Eliza (sic) WILLIAMS. It seems unlikely to be yours: just too many discrepancies.

Besides - the marriage ought to be before 1835?

Christine

erm, I agree the marriage should be, but what if it wasnt? I have a family... the GUYS, mum/dad 8 children.. first known child born 1875.. last child born 1891 living together quite happily as man and wife, except they didnt marry until 1907

might that be another reason for marrying in Wrexham, ? because people in Mold might gossip especially if they thought they were already married? likewise why they didnt marry in Liverpool?

[Christine in Herts]

erm, I agree the marriage should be, but what if it wasnt? I have a family... the GUYS, mum/dad 8 children.. first known child born 1875.. last child born 1891 living together quite happily as man and wife, except they didnt marry until 1907

I see what you mean. I think it's a church† wedding though, and you'd think that a keep-away-from-home wedding would have been at a Reg Office - but I suppose it could have been by licence. I have only seen the index entry, so I don't know whether it was banns or licence/cert.

†Yes - just looked it up: Minera, St Mary

Christine

[Christine in Herts]

I think that N Wales BMD couple are here in 1881:
45, Litchurch Street, Litchurch, Derbys
with daughters Henrietta 3 and Isabella 1.

I think that rules out that marriage, in all likelihood.

Christine

[MrStephen]

A fine idea, Kylejustin, but I think her age - just 24 when the lad is born in Liverpool, and presumably rather younger when, four years earlier, her untraceable first son (born in Mold, North Wales) is also born. I wouldn't have thought she's a widow judging by her youth (although it is possible).

I just think that maybe Mold-based records are poorly transcribed...wherever they are!

[MrStephen]

Fuzzy,

No they don't make it easily, especially when the eldest child - Thomas - states in every census that he is born in Liverpool. Except in his 2nd census (aged 16) when his mother states he was born in Mold and, of course, his very first census (1841) when he's actually *in* Mold! That was a hard jigsaw piece to work with.

Perhaps Thomas and Elizabeth never did marry...he dies in the 1840s. If I was sure which of the three possible deaths was his, I'd get the death cert and see whether it said Elizabeth (most likely informant) was his widow. But then again, she'd probably 'fib' again wouldn't she, if they weren't married...?

[MrStephen]

Cheers Christine!

As you point out, the marriage should be before 1835...and certainly before the groom is dead!

[Christine in Herts]

Cheers Christine!

As you point out, the marriage should be before 1835...and certainly before the groom is dead!

Sorry! have I lost the plot?! It's so easy to chase off after plausible stories, forgetting some significant piece of info.

Christine