scottish census- murphy/ mcgowan

[kylejustin]

im also having trouble with charles murphy (b.1877) a coal miner hewer and matilda mcgowan (b.1873). they married 9th jul 1897, east longrigg near aidrie, lanark.

i have them in 1901 in new monkland, lanark, with sons charles, 2 and james, infant both born new monkland. charles sr says he was born in carronoarth? stirlingshire?. and matilda n. monkland, lanarkshire.

but i can't find their births, or them in any previous census. i have tried the igi, and what's more i cant find the marriage details of the parents either.

charles b.1877, is the son of charles murphy, a coal miner and janet mckay. matilda's parents are james mcgowan a general hawker, and mary sloan.

[Christine in Herts]

With a name like MURPHY, is there any chance that Charles was born in Ireland, and not Scotland?

Christine

[kylejustin]

i should think at some point they would be. ive just found his parents marriage in 1881, but if charles was born in 1877, then i get confused!!

[herky]

There is an 1891 census with a
Charles Murphy age 15, coal miner
parents are
Charles Murphy b c 1856, Bathgate
Jeanette Murphy bc 1856 West calder
Siblings David bc 1883, James bc 1885, Thomas bc 1887

now this is really intersting as the address is the same street as some of my relatives lived - 24 Nimmos Row,

[Uncle John]

And in the West Lothian area there was a mix of coal miners and oil shale miners (the original Scottish oil industry).

[Christine in Herts]

i should think at some point they would be. ive just found his parents marriage in 1881, but if charles was born in 1877, then i get confused!!

Marriages and births don't always occur in the "conventional" order! This was true in the past, notwithstanding the "Victorian" values that were preached.

Christine

[kylejustin]

hi herky, i think thats them, the parents married in bathgate. i know that births happened before marriages, but if the parents married after, it may explain why im having trouble finding charles' birth.

oh, there's a birth in mid calder for janet mckay in 1855, and one for charles murphy in 1857 in bathgate. and marriages for their parents!! wow. hmmm, id still like to find the original charles murphy's birth. the fact the ages are fluid isn't helping.

[herky]

Try this one - registered under mother's name-
CHARLES MURPHY MACKAY, CARNWATH, LANARKSHIRE, 1877, GROS 632/057

[kylejustin]

smart move herky, i was wondering if i should look under mckay for it. is anyone able to help with matilda?

[herky]

and try MATILDA McGOWAN, 1877, SLAMANNAN, GROS 489/00 0135

Did you know that you can now search SP by first name without a surname??

[kylejustin]

really? i had no idea! that may be easier to find theose dratted mistranscriptions i think. thanx herky, your a legend!

[herky]

I had searched for my great granny for 5 years - even going to Edinburgh but could not find her - on the day SP changed its systems and I was able to search without a surname, I found her in a couple of minutes (long story with her mum using a different name for a short period and then reverting to the original one for the next census).
If you know the time period of an event and the area and the name is a bit unusual then you may just be lucky by a first name search.

Another tip I have found useful for SP - in Scotland many children have their mothers maiden name as a middle name. Try using the mothers middle name in the first name column - even though the child has another first name sometimes you get a result. Apologies if this is already known to you Kylejustin
eg - if you are looking for the children of James Smith and Ann Watson - try searching for Watson Smith - you could end up with a few children (James Watson Smith, Mary Watson Smith etc).
I find this more useful for finding children born after the 1901 census.

Getting excited now at the thought that the 1911 cencus in Scotland is only a few months away!!!

[kylejustin]

i cant wait either, my cousins great grandparents will be visible!!

[kylejustin]

thanx for the help herky, that was the correct birth for matilda mcgowan, i have also found her death, and it turns out her parents were james mcgowan and mary lemon! i have no idea where sloan comes into it! it was on her marriage, and her daughter had it as a middle name, but the birth and death for matilda say mother is mary lemon.

i found james mcgowan and mary lemons marriage in paisley in renfrew in 1861, their parents are listed as james mcgowan and mary gunnaway, and john and mary lemon (her maiden name). neither of which i am able to find marriages for. i think ill be looking at the census closely on these ones!

[Christine in Herts]

i have no idea where sloan comes into it! it was on her marriage, and her daughter had it as a middle name, but the birth and death for matilda say mother is mary lemon.

I can think of a couple of possible roots for the discrepancy...

1] SLOAN could be further back in the tree. For example, I managed to jump back about three generations by following a hunch about a likely baptism and matching a sibling's middle name to an ancestral maiden name - and I was able to back up my theory with Wills.

2] "Sloan" & "Lemon" aren't hugely different - either in sound, or in shape when written in script. That could be an area for error somewhere along the line - or the basis of a name-jump.

Christine

[kylejustin]

hi christine, maybe in a scots dialect they may sound similar, but they were clearly written, so no doubt bout that. i think sloan may be further back, but its weird to get it wrong, your mothers name is something you should know!!

[Olde Crone Holden]

Kyle

Sloan/Lemon may have been clearly written but they may have been copied from something that wasn't clearly written!

On my Scottish side I have one family, lots of children, who consistently say their mother's maiden name is DOM. It wasn't, it was DOW. I can only think they had a bit of paper with this written on, which they took with them when they went to register an event. As they couldn't read or write, they wouldn't have known it was wrong.

Although I knew my mother's maiden name, I certainly didn't know HER mother's maiden name. I thought I did...but I had it wrong (and so did my mother!).

OC

[kylejustin]

thats an intereting point oc.