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vikki brace
01-12-10, 19:45
I am getting rather anoyed with my Brown family. Just when I think I have got somewhere another wall jumps up and smacks me straight in the chops.

The information I have is as follows

9th Jul 1881 - St John the Evangelist, Walworth, Surrey
Henry Brown=Full=Bach=Carman=28 Henshaw St=Frederick Brown (Deceased)
Mary Ann Donovan=Full=spinster=20 Henshaw St=Denis Donovan (Deceased)

I have Henry in 1891-1911 his year of birth is 1857 but his place of birth varies from Westminster in 1891, bermondsey in 1901 and London Surrey in 1911

I have not been able to find Henry in any census before 1891. Is my only option to order a birth cert, bearing in mind there are quite a few possible Henry's even with a checking reference of fathers name

Anyone have any other suggestions

Elaine ..Spain
01-12-10, 19:50
Did you have any luck tracing back the Brown family that were living at 28 Henshaw Street in the 1891 census?

vikki brace
01-12-10, 19:58
Traced them back to 1841 in Norfolk and there doesn't seem to be any obvious links - It might be that Henry's father and Philip were cousins or even brothers but I couldn't find any evidence.

Elaine ..Spain
01-12-10, 20:06
What a shame!
The problem in trying to locate a birth certificate is that you really don't know where he was born.

Have you tried tracing this one back. Name, age and occupation are about right and he is only about a mile from Walworth where he marries a few months after the census was taken. I know it says he was born Camberwell but at least you might be able to eliminate him.

1881
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&gsfn=henry&gsln=brown&sx=&f1=&f2=&f3=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1853&rs_81004011__date=5&f29=carman&_82004011=&_82004013=&_82004014=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1881&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=2&h=21251819&recoff=1+2
RG11; Piece: 698; Folio: 123; Page: 68

Elaine ..Spain
01-12-10, 20:11
Not sure that was of much use - I think it goes back to this one in 1861 - father Edward
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&gsfn=edward&gsln=brown&sx=&f1=&f2=&f4=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1849&rs_81004011__date=2&f27=&f14=&f15=camberwell&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1861&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=6519587&recoff=1+2
RG9; Piece: 387; Folio: 171; Page: 34

vikki brace
01-12-10, 20:24
Ithink I did follow that one. I also looked at This family hoping to find Henry somewhere mistranscibed Class: RG11; Piece: 711; Folio: 47; Page: 34; GSU roll: 1341166.
but no luck as yet

vikki brace
01-12-10, 20:26
What a shame!
The problem in trying to locate a birth certificate is that you really don't know where he was born.



I thought I might try with those born in London/surrey border and then those around westminster, but thinking about it there could be a couple with father Frederick and that would leave me none the wiser

Elaine ..Spain
01-12-10, 21:42
That's the problem really. Because of his confusion over place of birth and no occupation shown for his deceased father Frederick, it is going to be very difficult to confirm you have the right one.

I can't remember - was Henry's marriage certificate in the LMA collection on Ancestry - in which case are there any other Brown marriages showing a father Frederick which could be for Henry's siblings.

Elaine ..Spain
01-12-10, 21:45
What about this one - same church. Father Fredk deceased.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f8=&f10=brown&sx=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&rg_f51__date=1881&rs_f51__date=5&f37=&f47=&f53=&f23=frederick&f24=&f18=&f19=&f28=&f29=&gskw=&prox=1&db=lmamarriages&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=44&h=1849584&recoff=11+31

Perhaps try to trace him back to see if he is Henry's brother.

Elaine ..Spain
01-12-10, 22:03
The father shown on that MC is Frederick James Brown.

There is a baptism here (same church) with a father Frederick James Brown - living at 31 Henshaw Street
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f3=frederick&f4=brown&sx=&f16=&f17=&rg_f18__date=1861&rs_f18__date=10&f24=%2c&f19=&f9=fred*&f13=&gskw=&db=lmabirths&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=35&h=1439874&recoff=11+12+47

Christine in Herts
01-12-10, 23:24
1901 and 1911 aren't inconsistent with one another; it's just having Westminster slipped in that makes it difficult.

My g-g-father gave his PoB variously as Maidenhead and Essex/Ilford. I came to the conclusion (since I knew his family showed up in the Maidenhead area during his childhood) that he'd probably sometimes been asked where he grew up, or where he came from, instead of where he was born. I thought it unlikely that someone would claim to be born in Essex rather than Berkshire, unless the Essex one were correct. I found his birth registration in the index - he was born in Barkingside.

On that basis, I'd suspect that yor man was born in Bermondsey, but spent some time in Westminster.

Christine

Elaine ..Spain
02-12-10, 13:42
There is another marriage here Vikki in the same church with father of the groom shown as Frederick Brown deceased.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f8=&f10=brown&sx=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&rg_f51__date=&rs_f51__date=0&f37=&f47=&f53=&f23=fred*&f24=&f18=&f19=&f28=&f29=&gskw=walworth&prox=1&db=lmamarriages&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=2&h=1851711&recoff=10+29

Again might be worth tracing this one back to see if he has a brother Henry.

Lindsay
02-12-10, 14:01
On that basis, I'd suspect that yor man was born in Bermondsey, but spent some time in Westminster.

Christine

I think Christine's right, there must be a Westminster connection. My 2xg grandmother gave Southwark and Shoreditch as her place of birth on different censuses and I'm pretty sure now she was born in Shoreditch and raised in Southwark.

vikki brace
03-12-10, 10:09
Thanks Elaine, Christine and Lindsay - Hopefully i'll get a chance to have a look at those Elaine, but with the schools closed my house is just mad we are all suffering from Cabin Fever.

vikki brace
03-12-10, 10:12
There is another marriage here Vikki in the same church with father of the groom shown as Frederick Brown deceased.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f8=&f10=brown&sx=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&rg_f51__date=&rs_f51__date=0&f37=&f47=&f53=&f23=fred*&f24=&f18=&f19=&f28=&f29=&gskw=walworth&prox=1&db=lmamarriages&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=2&h=1851711&recoff=10+29

Again might be worth tracing this one back to see if he has a brother Henry.

This one is already in my shoebox to follow up - can you make out the address for the groom

Elaine ..Spain
03-12-10, 10:43
This one is already in my shoebox to follow up - can you make out the address for the groom
Looks like Kirby Street

vikki brace
03-12-10, 11:07
Well I've found them in 1891 - Frederick and Hannah and their daughter Rebecca, Hannah is widowed in 1901 and living with her 2 daughters Rebecca (13) and Florence (9)

I think this is Fredericks death in 1897 St Olave, Southwark. The family were living at 10 Porlock Place in 1891 and 1901 which is in St Olave

Interestingly Fredericks place of birth in 1891 is Westminster!!!