Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Melbourne: Public Record Office Victoria Reading Rooms

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Record Office: Melbourne: Public Record Office Victoria Reading Rooms

    It's possible that my niece may be able to do this for herself - but it will take up precious time on a visit to Australia next spring when she's trying to catch up with family and show her husband what Australia has to offer the interested visitor.

    Series VPRS 7666
    Inward Overseas Passenger Lists (British Ports) [Microfiche Copy of VPRS 947]
    Family Name ~ TREADMAN (should be FRIEDMAN, but may be incorrect in the original, of course)
    First Name ~ MENDEL
    Age ~ 16
    Month ~ FEB
    Year ~ 1872
    Ship ~ HAMPSHIRE
    Port ~ B
    Fiche ~ 308
    Page ~ 002

    This link (hopefully) will guide you to the page which explains how that resource works:
    http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/component/daPublicBaseContainer?component=daViewSeries&bread crumbPath=Home\Access%20the%20Collection\PROVguide \SeriesDetails&entityId=7666

    Anything which can be picked up about this record would be good - especially images, of course! I am confident about the surname error, because Mendel FRIEDMAN's naturalisation document is on the NAA site and is very clear about where/when/in-what-ship he arrived.

    Christine

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    In this context, researching: FRIEDMAN/FREEMAN (England, NSW Australia, Pikallin in Lithuania), MARKS (England, VIC & NSW Australia, NZ, Himbach-Limeshain in Germany) STORCH (Himbach-Limeshain in Germany), COHEN, JACOBS JONES, BENJAMIN, GOLDSMID (London, England), & GOLDBERG (Lithuania)
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

  • #2
    I have had a reply from PROV:

    I can confirm that the passengers name on the list is Treadman. His
    nationality is listed as English, occupation Clerk. The departure port is
    Gravesend and arrival Melbourne.
    I'm inclined to think that there's been a mix-up of info somewhere. Anyone who is kind enough to pick up on this task: would you please check records nearby, to see if there could have been a transposition of information, say (as you sometimes see in the censuses, where husbands' and wives' PoBs get transposed).

    Mendel FRIEDMAN states very clearly in his naturalisation docs (which are free to view on the NAA site) that that was his arrival date and ship. And the age works out pretty closely (a year out, perhaps).

    There really doesn't seem to be much sign of an alternative person in England whom this could be.

    Christine
    Last edited by Christine in Herts; 15-11-10, 11:02.
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Christine

      I am in Sydney so looking at the PROV records would not be easy for me - but I think you have the right man.

      I searched and searched for Thomas Cole arriving on the Himalaya. I found all his brothers and sisters on the ship, and wondered who the hell was Francis Cole who had a wife of the same name as Thomas and four children with the same name and ages !! Doh ! it took a long time for the penny to drop.

      If he a local accent different to the clerk recording his details, his surname could easily have been misunderstood. If you say "Treedman" its not so different. About place of birth - it depends exactly what the question was - in NSW records the question is "Native place" which to some will not equate to place of birth, so maybe he considered England his native place if not his birthplace.

      Currently I am hunting for the death of Frederick Read - the most likely candidate's certificate says he was born in Scotland, not Ireland, which he left when he was 9, so I don't know how "Irish" his accent was, but obviously the local who reported his death could not tell the difference.

      Does this help ? If I can ever get to Melbourne, I will let you know, cause I will certainly be visiting PROV.

      Di
      Diane
      Sydney Australia
      Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you, Di.

        I'm not expecting anyone to go out of their way for this. Just if they're in teh area already, and planning to visit the Vic archives. I do appreciate your cooperative offer, though.

        best wishes
        Christine
        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Christine

          I don't usually go into the other forums on FTF so I have only just read your thread.

          I'm very inexperienced at searching, however, after chatting to my husband (who is better than me with microfiche) he is happy to go into North Melbourne and help me search for you. Four eyes is better than two :-)

          We can only go on a Saturday but PROV it is limited to two Saturdays a month. We are unsure of family commitments this Saturday (Grandson wants a sleepover Friday night) failing that we can go on the 11th Dec.

          Cheers Gerry

          Comment


          • #6
            That's very kind, Gerry - of both of you.

            Please don't make any special journey on this account - and, certainly, your own family demands must come first! If you are able to get anything useful, I know my niece will be very grateful.

            Christine
            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

            Comment


            • #7
              No Worries Christine we will do it at some stage. It gives us an excuse to go to our favourite Thai restaurant after leaving PROV :-)

              Am I correct in thinking all I need to take with me is the following information?

              Series VPRS 7666
              Inward Overseas Passenger Lists (British Ports) [Microfiche Copy of VPRS 947]
              Family Name ~ TREADMAN (should be FRIEDMAN, but may be incorrect in the original, of course)
              First Name ~ MENDEL
              Age ~ 16
              Month ~ FEB
              Year ~ 1872
              Ship ~ HAMPSHIRE
              Port ~ B
              Fiche ~ 308

              As I wrote before I am VERY inexperience at searching... (my interest is Adoption)

              Cheers Gerry

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm not aware of any more info that you might need. If you're able to get a copy of the image, then I can consider whether there's been any transposition of information, to explain the surname. And also I might get other clues... perhaps.

                In terms of background info, I'll give you what I have on Mendel:
                • b 1854-5 Pikallin, Lithuania, Russia [M & D-certs] s/o Wolf FRIEDMAN and Jeannetta née GOLDBERG (or, just possibly, SIEGELMAN)
                • 5 Feb 1872 arr Melbourne Australia; S S Hampshire [Natlzn paper]
                • FEB 1872: TREADMAN MENDEL age 16, Ship HAMPSHIRE, Port B, fiche 308, p 002 [inward Pax to Vic]
                  • "I can confirm that the passengers name on the list is Treadman. His nationality is listed as English, occupation Clerk. The departure port is Gravesend and arrival Melbourne." [email ask.prov@prov.vic.gov.au 101115]

                • from Pikallin, Lithuania [Natlzn paper]
                • 22 Feb 1879:THE HATFIELD BUSHRANGERS {From the Sydney Evening News.} At the Deniliquin Assizes on Thursday, April 17, before Sir William Manning (Mr. O. J. Manning being Crown Prosecutor), Thomas Gorman, William Kaye, William Hobbs, and Charles Jones, were charged, for that they, on the 24th day of February last, feloniously and with malice aforethought, did wound Thomas Power, with intent to kill and murder. Mr. McDermott defended Gorman, Mr.O'Ryan was assigned as counsel for Kaye, Hobbs, and Jones. Prisoners pleaded not guilty. The Crown Prosecutor gave an epitome of the evidence that he would call, and said that the question of punishment had nothing to do with any verdict the Jury might return. The law was that when a number of men act in concert to commit a crime, it matters not by whose hand it was actually committed, all are equally guilty. He called—
                  • Mendel Friedman said—On 22nd February I was at Government Tanks, Till Till Station, in my hawker's waggon. Gorman ordered me out of the waggon under cover of his revolver. He took five chains, my rings, and £10 12s 6d. in cash and cheques. Kaye, Jones, and Hobbs were armed. Jones said they were the Kellys. <snip>
                  • After reading over his notes in full, the Jury retired to their room, and in three minutes re-turned into Court with a verdict of guilty of the charge, and recommended Hobbs to mercy, as he is a cripple. <snip> The usual sentence of death was then passed. [The South Australian Advertiser Tue 29 Apr 1879 p6/8]
                  • MORE BUSHRANGING IN NEW SOUTH WALES. {By Telegraph.} Balranald, February 24. <snip> FURTHER PARTICULARS. The Hatfield bushrangers early on Saturday stuck up Friedman, a hawker, and took £310 in money from him as well as jewellery and cloth-ing. They then went to Till Till Station, and took ammunition, rations, and six horses be- longing to the station, previously making a man draft off the working men's horses. <snip> [South Australian Register Tue 25 Feb 1879 p5/10]
                  • (similar) [The Mercury Hobart, Tas. Tue 4 Mar 1879 p3/4; The Maitland Mercury & Hunter River General Advertiser Thu 27 Feb 1879 p2/8; Queanbeyan Age (NSW) Sat 1 Mar 1879 p2/4; The Argus (Melbourne) Tue 25 Feb 1879 p5/8; The Sydney Morning Herald Thu 27 Feb 1879 p8/16; The Maitland Mercury & Hunter River General Advertiser (NSW) Tue 25 Feb 1879 p5/8]

                • m 24 Oct 1888 13 Gore St, Fitzroy, Bourke, Victoria, age33, storekeeper; Albury NSW. Elizabeth JONES [Vic ref8809]
                  • Witn: Laurence COHEN & Leonard LEVY

                • Jan 1889 ALBURY | THURSDAY, JANUARY 24 | At Three O' Clock p m. Sharp. | ABSOLUTE SALE | Of | VALUABLE DEAN STREET PROPERTY.
                  • <snip> All that valuable | PROPERTY | Having a frontage of 120ft. on the north side of Dean street by a depth of 130ft., adjoining the Globe Hotel and Mr Justice's property, | Comprising | LARGE GENERAL STORE, | at present occupied by Mr M Friedman ; and | TWO SHOPS, with residences adjoining. [The Argus (Melbourne) Tue 22 Jan 1889 p2/10]

                • 30 Apr 1892: NOTICE TO CREDITORS.
                  • NOTICE is hereby given that MENDELL FRIEDMAN, of Albury and Corowa, in the colony of New South Wales, Storekeeper, has by deed dated the second day of March, 1892, conveyed and assigned all his estate, property, and effects whatsoever and wheresoever to a trustee upon trust for realisation and otherwise for the benefit of the creditors of the said Mendell Friedman as in the said deed men-tioned. All persons having any claims against the estate are hereby required to send in the same and particulars thereof to Mr. JOHN HERBERT BUTLER, Incorporated Accountant and Trade Assignee, Fink's-buildings, Mel-bourne, the Trustees' Agent, by the 20th day of May, 1892, after which date the trustees will distribute the trust fund between those persons only of whose claims they shall have had notice.
                  • Dated this 30th day of April, 1892. J. H. BUTLER, Incorporated Accountant and Trade Assignee, 6 and 7 Fink's-buildings, Melbourne. [The Sydney Morning Herald Tue 3 May 1892, p1]

                • Mar 1895: ? Mr M FRIEDMAN, age 37; "Aberdeen" Victoria ~ London via Capetown [Vic o/going pax 1852-1901] (doesn't show on Ancestry incoming pax)
                • 27 Jan 1909: applicn for naturalisation [NAA3631]
                • 1914 ER#2173 grocer; 21 Brighton Rd, St Kilda, Balaclava, Victoria
                • 1919 ER#2478 indept means; 50 Barkly St, St Kilda W, Balaclava, Victoria (FRIEDMAN)
                • 1924 ER [Ancestry]
                • 1930 ER#9094; 65 Warners Avenue, Bondi N, Wentworth, NSW (FREEMAN)
                • 1937 ERp53 #3134 (or p6 #10326) no occupn; 288 Victoria St, Darlinghurst, E Sydney
                • d 27 Nov 1939, age 84, State Hosp & Home, Lidcombe. GRANVILLE 23140/1939, hypostatic pneumonia, pamphigus vulgaris; resdt Waverley; storekeeper;
                  • informt: L R McKell, asst mgr of hosp-home, & F Pogson, actg depy commnr of pensns, Sydney [D-cert]

                • bur 28 Nov 1939, Jewish Cemetery, Rookwood [D-cert] "Mendel son of Moshe" (only part of Hebrew) [from image], inscription "our father"; sectn 10 no 86, PHOTOs [bur]

                Achieving a look-up:
                There's info here:
                http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide050/PROVguide050.jsp
                which explains how to find the film which relates to the particular passenger list. (steps 3 and 4)
                The fiche number is 308 and the page number is 002.

                This is the general info that was sent to me as to where to pursue research:
                PROVguide 50 Locating and Copying Ships' Passenger Lists available online at
                www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide050/PROVguide050.jsp
                PROVguide 52 Immigration Records available online at
                www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide052/PROVguide052.jsp
                PROVguide 54 Ships and Shipping Movements available online at
                www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide054/PROVguide054.jsp
                Christine
                PS - enjoy your meal!

                ~~~~~~~~~
                In this context, researching: FRIEDMAN/FREEMAN (England, NSW Australia, Pikallin in Lithuania), MARKS (England, VIC & NSW Australia, NZ, Himbach-Limeshain in Germany) STORCH (Himbach-Limeshain in Germany), COHEN, JACOBS JONES, BENJAMIN, GOLDSMID (London, England), & GOLDBERG (Lithuania)
                Last edited by Christine in Herts; 23-11-10, 19:21.
                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                Comment


                • #9
                  I really appreciate your willingness to do this for me.

                  thank you
                  Christine
                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Wow! Christine that's interesting stuff. I have printed it off and will take it with us.

                    Cheers Gerry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gerry View Post
                      Wow! Christine that's interesting stuff. I have printed it off and will take it with us.

                      Cheers Gerry
                      It's interesting largely because there's a lot of useful material for Australia that's freely available online: the NAA site gave me the naturalisation docs, and Trove gave me the newspaper articles.

                      Christine
                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Christine

                        We went into the PROV this morning and got a copy of the passenger list which I'll send to you if you pm me your address.

                        We double checked ALL the passenger names on the Hampshire for your dates in both Cabin and Steerage class. There were no other passengers that had a sound or look alike name. The handwriting of the T and F are very similar and if you squint you can almost see how it was mistranscribed. Treadman and Friedman look very similar.

                        We were surprised how small the ship was as it could only carry 86 passengers. Mendel Treadman is listed in steerage.

                        Cheers Gerry

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thank you so very much for all your efforts on my/our behalf - it's very generous of you to give your time and effort like that!

                          I'll PM you an e-address.

                          Christine
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X