Help ~> dating of victorian photographs.

[banksia boy]

Hi All

It has been a good while since I last posted photographs on Family Tree Forum & was wondering if anyone could shed light onto the following images (included are front & reverse sides of respective photographs). I have my thoughts as to when they may have been taken, but I am not an expert in photography (or fashion) & would like your input as to the closest year/s they may have been taken & any guesses as to the respective ages of the subjects would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in Advance - Banksia Boy

[Velma Dinkley]

I've come across this photographer before and found this website useful http://homepages.tesco.net/~roger.va.../taylor-ag.htm as it has examples of their cards, which should help you date the photos.

Looking at the lady, someone has scribbled across her face!! My great great grandmother had a dress similar to that style, and the photo was dated c1880.

HTH

[banksia boy]

Hi Velma :-)

Thank you for your thoughts V

I have previously had a really good look on a few websites for examples for 'A & G TAYLOR' - the photograph of the man I think may have been taken btw 1877-1880 & was wondering if others came to the same conclusion? (-Thoughts?-)

I had an inkling the photograph of the lady may be circa 1880s, but had a feeling someone with a keen eye for fashion may be able to pinpoint the period more clearly (thanks V) (-Any further Thoughts?-)

*I am also trying to identify the male & female are in the respective photos & whilst the image of the male has faded with age & the females face has unfortunately been scrawled over I am wondering if anyone may have thoughts to there ages (?)

NOTE: I have Photoshop & am able to clean them up :-)

Yours - Banksia Boy (AKA: Steve).

[don.t]

Dating photographs that only have men as the subject can, at times, be near impossible to give a set date too as men tend to wear the same style of clothing that they feel comfortable with even if the fashion has or had changed many years previously, and in this case it is no exception. However there are clues that can guide one to a date period when coupled together. For instance there is nothing that stands out with the mans appearance to say when it was taken except that he has a side parting to his hair which would give a period of between 1870 and 1880, however his facial hair, known as Dundreary Whiskers, first appeared after they were worn by an actor who appeared as a character called Lord Dundreary in the 1858 play "Our American Cousin", and between the years of 1860 to 1870 these whiskers, worn with a drooping moustache, were the mode of that period. When looking at the card stock more clues can be found.

The small words printed at the bottom of the reverse of the card reads Marion Imp Paris. In this form it would date the image to be from the 1870's onwards. The use of the single crown at the top of the reverse of the card pushes the date frame on a bit more as A&G Taylor used this mark between 1873 to 1880. Looking at the corners of the actual card stock gives a date of the image being printed after 1878 as this was when rounded corners to the cards were being used as prior to this date the corners had been squared off. Finally when looking at the various branches that are advertised on the reverse one can get a good idea when the image would have been produced, A&G (Andrew and George) Taylor opened their premises in Paris in 1879 which was also the same year as their premises in Bristol and Dublin opening up, and the American cities that are listed were included only after 1879 as well. The were trading in Birmingham circa 1880 and were in Cardiff either in or by 1884. I can not get a firm date for their Stockon branch but they were trading out of 106 The High Street Stockton in or around 1896. So with all the above information I would say that a date of some where after 1880 and towards 1884 would be the period that I would be looking at.

[banksia boy]

Hi Don.t :-)

Thank you for your very detailed observations for the photograph of the male, whilst I had picked up on a few of the (same) points you describe, you obviously have a very keen eye for small detail of which had totally escaped my notice. I certainly could not ask for more as you have broken everything down into guiding stages clearly & most concisely.

I am more than sure now that it is not the photograph of the person some in the family believe him to be - as his age would definitely would be in his early 50’s by the early 1880s – the dimple on his chin discounts it being a photograph of my Great Grand Father in his youth b:1857 (the whiskers get in the way) – I am thinking it may be a photo of his older brother b:1851 (the man in the photograph looks more 30s to me – but then again I could be wrong (?)

Again – Huge Thank you D – Most appreciated.

Yours – Steve.

NOTE: Any more thoughts regarding the woman greatly appreciated :-)

Need to go offline – back in approx 10 hours - Till then.

[don.t]

A quick answer for the date of the woman (until I have a bit more time to look at it properly) would be sometime between 1877 and 1882. I may alter this suggested date period slightly when I have looked at the image more closely.

[banksia boy]

Hi D :-)

(Looking more & more likely that the 2 photographs are from roughly [around] the same year[s]/give or take a few yrs) I look forward to reading your thoughts for the photograph of the lady.

*I will be back & forth from my computer during the next 24 hours – Will get back when I can in between.

‘Big Ta’

Yours – (Banksia Boy) Steve.

[Anne in Carlisle]

I'm not good with photos but I'll take a stab at the ages of the people.

The man I think could be anywhere from 30 to 50! The whiskers disguise a lot but I think there may be some grey in there and I wouldn't discount anything up to 50.

The young woman looks to me to be between 18 and 25. It might be an engagement photograph as her hand is prominently held to show her ring.

Anne

[Velma Dinkley]

I would Google 'Archibald Robertson + photographer + Glasgow' as the card may help you date the photo more exactly, as with the first photo.

I'm not very good with ages in old photos, because they always look older then they are! Although have to agree with Anne's thoughts. I'm still wondering why her face is scribbled out... could it be a family rift or a divorce perhaps. I found a photo of my dad, his mother and an ex-girlfriend and her face has been scribbled over too, so I'm wondering about the significance

[Anne in Carlisle]

Looks more like a child's scribble to me. I think an adult would have been more thorough!

Anne

[Velma Dinkley]

I was thinking that, but why just the face?? A child would scribble anywhere and everwhere... but you never know! :D

[don.t]

Everything from her fizzed fringe/plaited chignon at the back of the head to the style of bodice with its twin velveteen strips in the centre of the bodice and slight padded shoulders suggest to me the date period that I previously gave. As for the photographer, Archibald Robertson, he was trading as a Ferrotype & Artist for sometime during the mid to late 1800's. In 1859 he was noted as being a photographer in Glasgow and operated from 37 Glassford Street from at least 1866 to 1889 and from between 1877 and 1885 at the address given in Dumbarton. I would possibly take the previous date period that I gave and tweek it a tad by a couple of years by saying a suggested date period would now be from 1878 (for the rounded corners on the card stock) to about 1885 as hair and dress styles changed about this time.

[banksia boy]

Hi Anne & Velma :-)

I noticed there as been a flurry of activity on my post! Thank you both indeed for your thoughts & ideas

I agree it is very hard to see the face through that magnificent disguise of a mustache – the photographs were recently sent (emailed) onto me from one of my fathers first cousins in Wales. The writing on the back of the male does state the name of Donald – (as) Grandfather. I know the person who wrote this never met her Grandfather & his name was actually Duncan – who was born in 1826. Now if the photograph is of Duncan in the year’s c.1881-1884 it would put his age at 55-58. No matter how much I wish this photograph to be of Duncan I don’t think it is (unless time has been very kind to him). There is a strong likeness to my Grandfather (who I thought it might be) as he was born in 1857 (which would put his age at about 24-27) – but the man in the photograph has a distinct dimple on his chin & whilst I only have 2 photographs of my Great Grandfather (as a much older man [he reached 86 years]) – I am unable to detect a dimple. The only person I think it could be is his older brother Malcolm b: 1851 – which would indeed put his age at 30-33 for the years 1881-1884.

The female is indeed showing of the ring. I also think it may in fact be an engagement photograph. I thought it may be of my Great Grandmother b: 1857 (married in 1878) – which would fit perfectly with what Don.t wrote yesterday. The problem is that I only have a few photographs of the people I had hoped they were of and it is difficult to reverse age them in my minds eye) minus 40 odd years (it is very difficult to do). It is the fashion of her dress I was thinking may pinpoint the age of the photo – but as Don.t pointed out, not everyone was able to have a rotating wardrobe & wore things way after certain fashions had come & gone. Velma – I would like to think your approximate of c.1880 may be close to when the picture was taken. *I have tried to Google for information on Archibald Robertson & whilst I found a few things, nothing really stuck out that gave me any real clues for the time periods when it may have been taken.

I also think the scribble was done by a child – I have been slowly photo shopping it – it is a challenge – especially the face….nearly there!

Yours – Banksia Boy (Steve) ;-)

[banksia boy]

Our posts leapfrogged each other D :-)

What good timing – You have been ‘sleuthing’ I see (again - well rounded detective work). 'Fantastic', this does indeed correspond not only with your initial thoughts - but also with Velma’s earlier approx of c.1880 for the dress & perhaps it is a photograph of my Great Grandmother Janet who married in 1878 (?!)

I am thinking of posting a photograph of my great Grandmother (in old/er age) & my nearly completed Photoshop of the already posted photograph to see if others are able to see any similarities (it has been difficult to improve on the face without losing detail in taking away the markings). *I may not be able to post these photographs till later next week – so I will indeed be back with a new posting with much eagerness!

Once again – Big huge ‘Ta’ D

Yours – Banksia Boy (Steve) ;-)