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Calling those with Nottingham connections

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  • Calling those with Nottingham connections

    Do any of you know the best (or only ?) source of information about local philanthropic organisations/individuals helping the poor in Nottingham in the eighteenth &/or nineteenth centuries ? (with particular reference to the lace industry)

    Unfortunately, I can't get into Nottingham library, but maybe the best thing would be to get in touch with them & ask for their advice ? I don't know if they provide a service you can pay for to photocopy any relevant stuff & post it to you ?

    Any suggestions, please ?

  • #2
    Hi,

    your best bet would be Nottingham Archives I guess. What kind of info are you looking for? sorry greying, (I dont like saying that lol! sounds so old and I'm sure your not )
    Julie
    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

    .......I find dead people

    Comment


    • #3
      throw some names atme and i'll have a look about as I am in the shire myself.
      Julie
      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

      .......I find dead people

      Comment


      • #4
        I can't help you directly here, but as background information you might be interested in this article from our magazine, which relates to conditions in the lace industry in Nottingham:

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks very much to you both. George Bradley was one of the lace manufacturers...think he was probably a Methodist (his wife came from a Methodist family...can't find his birth details...the Methodist records are kept by Nottm Archives, but they don't go back far enough). This relates to the dreaded Alfred Bradley Asher....my gggg grandfather's first child (in Nottm, of course) There seems to be no earthly reason why he would have chosen these names. (the rest of his children have very Jewish names & these names don't appear in his wife's family tree)...so I'm just wondering if George Bradley or one of his relatives did good works for the laceworkers & this was a mark of respect. It's a long shot, I know....my gggg grandfather lived on Newcastle St (the bit between Vic Centre & Argos) &, by 1820, he was a hawker (though maybe he'd worked in lace prior to that), so he would certainly have known of the lace manufacturers & may have been selling their goods.

          A long shot, I know, but it's very interesting....just wondered if I could find out more (his firm has evolved into GL Bradley Ltd (Lace Design) of Long Eaton, but they can only add where he's buried to the information I've been able to get from his marriage/census records

          Comment


          • #6
            I would definitely try e-mailing the Notts archives - I know they have a lot of documents about my Henry Mallet's lace company, which I haven't had time to view yet, so there may well be some about Bradley's firms.

            However, in my experience, unusual middle names are usually the surnames of family members, and often the surname of the putative father in the case of an illegitimate birth.

            Comment


            • #7
              have you tried looking at this site?



              they have alot of methodist baptisms on it, I have found some of my relatives on it.
              Julie
              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

              .......I find dead people

              Comment


              • #8
                ooohh have a look at this (fifth paragraph down)

                Julie
                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                .......I find dead people

                Comment


                • #9
                  He apparently died in 1854, but I can't see a will for him on the TNA site. It's too early for the National Probate calendar, but you could try the death duty index on FMP. If there was a connection with your family, there's a possibility they were mentioned in the will. If there isn't a will, it suggests he wasn't all that wealthy...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks again to you both.....Lenton (George Bradley was living on Birch Lane on the census records) was definitely the area to live in Nottingham at the time if you'd made your pile in the "new" industries. The nickname of the church which serves the parish (where yours truly got married) was the "drawing room church" at the time because of its well-heeled parishoners.

                    I'm not saying he had a direct connection with my family...although we've been chewing this over on my Alfred Bradley thread (don't go there...it's dangerous for the brain) As I said, my gggg grandfather started off as an immigrant hawker & gradually built up quite a nice little business, but nothing in the lace manufacturers' league. My grandparents still had social & business connections with those Nottingham business families....headed by those families that owned Boots, Players, Raleigh & Jesse Robinson. & I know there were people from the lace industry among them. & they used to visit what my mother's family called posh people in Lenton who were old family friends/some kind of relatives....but they could have been anyone. Thought we'd found a hot clue when I found an Alfred Bradley in Chatham (too complicated to go into....let's just say my family & George Bradley's wife had what looks like relatives in Chatham)....but Alfred turned out to be a mistranscription of Alfrey, which turned out to have been a mistranscription of Alfey....

                    But what I'm thinking is that maybe George's family, being nineteenth century Methodist employers..., were responsible for acts of philanthropy, so maybe they were some kind of benefactors.

                    I know it's all up in the air stuff (even though it leads you into interesting nooks & crannies), but I've tried twisting & turning it every way. I have very grave doubts whether Lyon Asher would have given his first child 2 names from his wife's family....even if I could find Alfred & Bradley in her tree....which I can't. And even if what I suspect is true...that he had already fathered one child (named Samuel Lyon & credited to William Asher), I still think there has to be something pretty significant for 2 names from outside his family to be given to his second child. I've looked everywhere for Alfred Bradleys...of course, it could just be someone who helped him sometime that we don't know about....plenty of Bradleys in S Yorkshire who could have spent a bit of time in Nottingham....& there was a little knot of Ashers & Bradleys near Market Harborough, Leicestershire. But I can't find any links. Alfred Bradley's mother is only listed as Elizabeth Asher (can't find a marriage) & his partner on the census records is Elizabeth....as sure as you can be that that was an Elizabeth Barfield from Titchmarsh, Northants....but maybe Alfred's mother was a different Elizabeth ?

                    But I'm going to go on trying to find the answer to this....because it's intriguing fun....I'll drag you into straitjackets with me.

                    Thanks for the tips.....I shall certainly follow them up

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I did read the previous threads and like you got in a right old brain freeze after it! I know its frustrating and confusing, (been there and got the t shirt!)

                      I presume you have had a look at the settlement records? if there are any for Nottingham? for the families concerned?
                      Julie
                      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                      .......I find dead people

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You have to realise you're dealing with someone who is inexperienced & a bit of an idiot at the best of times....what are the settlement records ?......

                        (Frustrating & confusing....yes....but great fun & highly interesting)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by greyingrey View Post
                          You have to realise you're dealing with someone who is inexperienced & a bit of an idiot at the best of times....what are the settlement records ?......

                          (Frustrating & confusing....yes....but great fun & highly interesting)
                          they usually state when someone from another place/parish moved to a particular area, (I think)

                          I have seen some settlement records for Leicestershire and they also include removal orders, (which if someone has been abit naughty they could get removed from the parish they are in to their original parish)

                          I dont know if there are any on cd to buy for Nottingham, but if there are any then they would be at the Archives in Nottingham.

                          and by the by, you dont sound like an inexperienced person at all, you have uncovered more stuff than I could dream of after reading your posts :D
                          Julie
                          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                          .......I find dead people

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            sometimes also if you have a look at the Banns book for marriages it might state that the bride or groom was from another part of the country, I have seen several where this is the case
                            Julie
                            They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                            .......I find dead people

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              this tells you abit more

                              Julie
                              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                              .......I find dead people

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                is Alfred the one that married Ann? and lived in st marys parish? I presume you have their marriage cert?
                                Julie
                                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                .......I find dead people

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Well, actually, other people have uncovered most of it for me. Due to illness, I have a lot of time, so the time I've spent on it is completely disproportionate to my ability to see through it properly.

                                  As far as George Bradley goes, he stated on the census records that he had been born in Notts & his wife claimed to have been born in Long Eaton, Derbys (we will liberate LE again one day) Presumably, if either of their memories had been wrong & they'd only lived in either of these places since early childhood, they would have been put right by the settlement records ?. I've seen that on the marriage records too (or someone else has seen it for me)in Leicester...for example, when William Asher married Elizabeth Barfield (the Elizabeth that Lyon is with on the census records) in 1814, it stated that she had been born in Northants....it didn't say anything about William. Soooooo......if there is one for Nottingham, it could tell us if Lyon had been living elsewhere prior to coming to Nottingham ? Or did immigrants like him slip through the net ? Worth looking at anyway.

                                  Thank you very much (as always)

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    sorry that you have been ill, :(

                                    i'm a little confused now, (see, its catching..lol!!) so are you now thinking that George Bradley is Alfreds Dad?

                                    and yes I think that the settlement records would help, (I do have ones for Leicestershire, but not Notts)

                                    I think we could do with a timeline, this would hopefully help to sort out the different Ashers/Bradleys?
                                    Julie
                                    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                    .......I find dead people

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Oh.....the settlement records for Leicestershire....they could be handy to see if William Asher is on there. Not sure how to do a timeline....but this is the kitchan sink one.......

                                      1776 Geoge Bradley born Notts, Brinsley/Greasley (!841 census)
                                      1781 Mary Jerom (later George Bradley's wife) born Long Eaton, Derbys (grrr) to a Methodist family
                                      1786 Lyon Asher born "Germany" (probably present day Poland)
                                      1790ish birth of Leh Lyon "in Germany
                                      1799 marriage of Robert Bradley & Alfey Joslin in Chatham. Can't find baptisms. (non conformists ?) Alfey was mistranscribed as Alfrey while she was still alive & there's an entry of the marriage on the Mormon site where she's listed as Alfred...which is what caught my attention...but this looks like a red herring, I suppose
                                      1807 birth of Elizabeth Bradley, daughter of Robert & Alfey Bradley at Chatham (unverified on Mormon site)
                                      1814 William Asher married Elizabeth Barfield of Northants at St Martin's, Leicester. (No family clues from the witnesses)
                                      1815 Baptism of George Thomas Barfield Asher, son of William & Elizabeth Asher at St Mary's, Nottingham. William described as a hawker. Thomas Barfield was Elizabeth's father. Got a good candidate for William from Leicester with father George but he seems to be the WA who married Elizabeth Hall at Leicester All Saints in 1816, unless that was a bigamous marriage & Lyon , not William,was really the father of the next child on this list.........
                                      1818 baptism of Samuel Lyon Asher, son of William (hawker) & Elizabeth Asher at St Mary's, Nottingham

                                      William then disappears from the records. I....& a lot if very kind (but now insane) people have tried pursuing every William Asher we can find. A particular black hole are a William & Elizabeth Asher at Arnold Nottingham. They married at Arnold, but "Elizabeth" was actually Clementine Elizabeth Brown from Derby ...half the time she's recorded as Elizabeth & half the time as Clementine.

                                      1820 first sighting of Lyon Asher in England with the baptism of his son, Alfred Bradley Asher (mother Elizabeth Asher...can't find a marriage) at Nottingham St Peter's (St Peter's & St Mary's are both city centre churches &, in the area where William & Lyon Asher lived, you cross the road & you move between the parishes..ie there's no significance) We also spot Lyon later in 1820 when he's summoned for non payment of the poor tax (rolls eyes) Lyon described as a licensed hawker. There's a big difference in status between this & William's simple "hawker".....Lyon would have been much more respectable &, essentially, a small businessman (he'd have had his own horse & cart !) Of course, this could have been a logical progression, especially if some kind person had helped Lyon with a bit of starting up capital.

                                      Lyon's children were. (in no particular order)....Joseph, Reuben, Jacob, Rosetta, Abraham &.......Alfred Bradley (you see what I mean about his name sticking out....especially for a first child) The Jewish experts on this board have told me that Alfred was used fairly frequently as an anglicisation of Lyon....so maybe that's what happened & he became more secure in his Jewish identity later (still doesn't explain Bradley, though)

                                      1822 baptism of Joseph, son of Lyon & Elizabeth Asher at St Mary's, Nottingham. Although children continued to be born in a steady flow, I can't find any more baptisms (Reuben was baptised when he was an adult) Maybe they didn't bother, maybe some kind of unofficial Jewish ceremony had been established, maybe something had happened to Elizabeth & there was a new Elizabeth in Lyon's life who wasn't bothered about baptisms.

                                      1821/3 (census details vary) births of Simeon Lyon & Asher Lyon, sons of Leh Lyon & his wife Elizabeth, in Nottingham (2 separate births, not twins)
                                      They went on to have 2 children in Chatham & ended up on the 1841 census living in Gillingham. Living with them was a Caroline Asher & her son Henry (no father) She had been born in Portsea. She (re?) married in 1847 & I'm waiting for her marriage certificate. Although I can't find Lyon Asher in Portsea, there seem to be lots of connections there (there was a small but very well & long established Jewish community there) I don't know if a lot of them had moved up to Nottingham. Eg....

                                      In the 1830s, William Asher's first son, George, married a Caroline Simpson at Basford, Nottingham. She was illegitimate, but had been born in Nottingham as had her mother. Caroline's mother eventually married a Richard Harper who was from.....Portsea ! A Simson family was one of the biggest families in the Portsea Jewish community. There were significant Jerom(e) familes (the name of George Bradley's wife) in both Portsea & Chatham (non conformists)....again, this could be pure coincidence

                                      1835 Samuel Lyon Asher (William's second son) transported to Australia.
                                      1840 George Asher (William's first son) emigrated to the US....at least, I'm pretty sure it was him....because the details fit, he disappears from the English records & the George Asher who emigrated ended up in Apalachicola, Florida. For around 25 years, while he was there, it was the world's leading exporter of sponges....they even encouraged immigration by expert divers from Greece (Greece had been the previous Top Nation) The Apalachicola sponge trade was controlled by a German Jewish immigrant named Henry Brack & when Lyon Asher died in Nottingham in 1860 his death notice said that he had had a business trading in sponges,

                                      Census records.....these show Lyon & Elizabeth (Betsy) Asher. Elizabeth is described as having been born in Titchmarsh, Northants. Their youngest child, Reuben, named his only daughter Betsy Barfield. A VERY kind person on the BBC boards went through all the Titchmarsh Elizabeths born around the right time & we were left with 5 or 6 that couldn't be found married or buried elsewhere.....& one of those was an Elizabeth Barfield....almost certainly the same Elizabeth Barfield who married William Asher in 1814

                                      You'll find one or two descendants of Lyon have posted family trees....they're all descendants of Alfred Bradley Asher (Lyon's first son) & they all name Betsy as an Elizabeth Bradley of Thrapston (which is just down the road from Titchmarsh) In fact, she married someone named Marshall Meadows in Thrapston & stayed in Northants & with him all her life. But Alfred Bradley Asher's name still sticks out like a sore thumb....soooo.....was William the same person as Lyon (I don't think so, although I used to) Was Alfred Bradley Asher's mother a different Elizabeth to the one with Lyon on the census records &/or was Alfred Bradley named after some kind of benefactor....say from George Bradley the lace manufacturer's family ?

                                      (Correct answer is "We don't care.....now go away")

                                      Sorry I've put so much in here....I'm sure a lot if it is irrelevant/purely speculative, but I think you'll be able to see through it better than I can.

                                      I think what I've got to do now is to try & see if there's a death for an Elizabeth Asher who could have been Alfred Bradley Asher's mother...if so that might mean that we are looking for an Elizabeth Bradley as Lyon's first partner. George Bradley's birth was too early to be held in the Methodist records held at Nottm Archives, (by about 10 years) but maybe there are other members of his family there.

                                      Off to find a darkened room.........

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Of course, as soon as I'd typed this, I got a message from someone at the present company of GL Bradley Ltd (this is the company George Bradley's old firm has evolved into) citing an old book about Lenton, where it talks about George, gives the names of his parents (John & Charlotte) & "also mentions" Charles, Herbert, Frederick & ALFRED Bradley "

                                        Yikes !!!

                                        Off to check it out

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