Jewish names

[cwheelerparker]

Hi

I have been looking into the name of Warclaw Spiezick on his service record it states he was from Russia County Poland he came here c1904 with his parents their names were Kaiper Spiezick and Helena with the family came daughter in law Josefer Pawliczak and son-in-law John Oxstein.

I have gone as far as I can I have tried researching Jewgen but the names are soundtex
and I was advised that the names would indicate which town and then go from there.

So any more advise would be welcome

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

Christine

How do you know this family is Jewish?

OC

[cwheelerparker]

Because on Warclaw's service record it states that he is Jewish and he serviced in the Labour Corp and he is my sons great grand father

Christine

[brenmac]

google his name see what comes up brenda xxx

[cwheelerparker]

Hi brenmac

I did google the name and the Russian genealogy site came up with the name and a message that someone was looking for this name the author in question is me I posted that query sometime ago. But thank you anyway I had forgotten that I had posted it

Christine

[brenmac]

have you looked on the lds site?brenda xxxx

[Olde Crone Holden]

(Bren, I don't think there are many Jewish records on the LDS).

Christine

Jewish genealogy is notoriously difficult I'm afraid. However, a few thiings you can do:

Did Warclaw marry? There may be something about his origins on his marriage allegation (synagogue record).

If Warclaw did service then he must have been naturalised - naturalisation papers are at Kew, you can search (I think) on TNA site. Ditto for his father and his brother in law.

Do you have his passenger information into England? Passenger lists are sometimes a clue to origins.

OC

[cwheelerparker]

Hi
Warclaw used two more names Whatworth, William, He enlisted for the Labour Corp he used Warclaw and William was used when he was discharged also in the service record states religion Jew but he didn't want to join a Jewish Battalion in 1907 he married a Emma Belcher Williamson a Catholic in a Catholic Church in North Woolwich. And on his marriage certificate he has used the name Whatworth. I guess he changed his name because I don't suppose Emma's family would have approved nor his family.

His brother Vladislaus changed his name to John. I was hoping that one of the other branches were tracing their trees ie the Pawliczak's or the Oxstein's

I am afraid its a mystery

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

How odd that he should change his first name but not his (very foreign!) surname!

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

There is an Oxstein event before 1904, lol, maybe not them though. (Also Ockstein)

Do you have the families in 1911?

OC

[cwheelerparker]

What is an Oxstein event my brother-in-law found the Oxstein's in the 1911

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

Sorry, I meant a birth or marriage or death - have a look at www.freebmd.org.uk
Did the Oxsteins only give Russia as their birthplace in 1911?

OC

[cwheelerparker]

What is an Oxstein event my brother-in-law found Oxstein in the census there were Oxstein's living not far away from the us the year I married my first husband and I think we didn't know them I thought that was quite sad.

Christine

[cwheelerparker]

On the census they have put Poland Russia but the census isn't always transcribed correctly and it has been quite difficult trying to find them. We have death for some of them and marriages. but get the birth as they were born in Russia/Poland

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

The 1911 census was filled in by the householder himself, so the information on the form is what they have given, there is no transcription involved. Shame they didn't put the actual place in Poland. (Some immigrants did).

You haven't said whether you have investigated naturalisation records for the family. These would have a town of origin. (Which isn't always the truth, but it is somewhere to start)

OC

[Karen S]

(Bren, I don't think there are many Jewish records on the LDS).

Christine

Jewish genealogy is notoriously difficult I'm afraid. However, a few thiings you can do:

Did Warclaw marry? There may be something about his origins on his marriage allegation (synagogue record).

If Warclaw did service then he must have been naturalised - naturalisation papers are at Kew, you can search (I think) on TNA site. Ditto for his father and his brother in law.

Do you have his passenger information into England? Passenger lists are sometimes a clue to origins.

OC

His records say that he is a Russian subject and has a police certificate number.

[Karen S]

He also has an alien identity book number. Can more info be found out that way?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Oh, wow! We are just trying to track Alien Records on another thread about Jewish people. It would appear that no Alien Records survive in England, at least if they do then they are not in any recognisable form (but things turn up all the time).

The fact that he has an alien ID number would narrow down the time for any naturalisation records. Very odd to go from an alien to a serving soldier though, without naturalisation.

oc

[naomiatt]

Hi - have you looked in the London Gazette with the various names and any addresses you might have?

There are WW1 records in the British Jewry Book of Honour..that can be found on the Moving Here site.
There are also some WW1 Alien Reg Cards held at the Police Museum in Birmingham and some Salford records held at Manchester Police Museum.

Post 1916, there was an Anglo Russian Military Service Convention and men (inc Aliens) from either the UK or Russia could be conscripted in each others army. I have heard of stories where people were conscripted earlier on even though they were 'aliens'. I think it was a no choice situation..serve or get sent back. Sometimes people were used for their language as well. There's quite a bit of info in the JGen and SIG Message Archives.

Have you looked at JRIPoland http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/Poland/ It would be worth registering and putting your surnames on the JGFF (Jewish Gen Family Finder). You mentioned that you looked at JewishGen so sounds like you may already be registered.
Putting the names on JGFF using Poland and England for locations might well attract a researcher who has similiar names. It's also worth posting to JRIPoland Discussion Group..

http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/jriintro.htm

I've just had a look at http://www.avotaynu.com/csi/csi-result.html?page=next
consolidated surname index - Spiezick has many alternatives including Spidzack, Spisiak, Spitzik etc - Oxstein might be Aksztain, Ekstyn, Oksztajn etc and Pawliczak seems to show as
Pawliszak or Pawlaczyk. Using the exact spellings you have don't show in the Jewish Chronicle Archives.
Have you found any marriage or death records for the families you've mentioned, and if applic, any Jewish records e.g burial locations, Hebrew marriage authorisations etc?

[cwheelerparker]

Hi

This is really interesting but how do I find the records on police certificate number? we have the marriage of Warclaw and Emma death of Warclaw's brother death of Warclaw's son Stanley surname now Spizick (my father-in-law).

I also have a passenger list stating a Marko Spiezick race Russian going to New York 1912 ship Kaiserin Auguste Victoria I do not know how this chap fits in

Christine