Copy of Original Marriage Certificate

[Alec]

I am researching my assumed 3 x great grandfather and his children in order to prove the relationship to my 2 x great gandfather to the greatest possible degree.

I have the marriage certificate for my assumed 2 x great grand uncle which in most respects supports information gleaned from the censuses, national probate calendar, BMD, etc. It is however a type written copy, not a photocopy of the original. It also differs substantially in one respect from these other sources in that it lists the grooms age as 29 and the brides age as 24. If I have the correct marriage, then the bride should be ~54.

An explanation could be that the original is in very poor condition and that it is difficult to read the age, and hence it has been mis-transcribed. Is it possible to get access to the original documents in order to prove this one way or the other.

[kylejustin]

possibly. if you could give a little more detail about your 2nd great grandad, and information you know about his father, and then a little info on the man you believe could be his father, we might be able to ascertain if you have the right family? sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can be extremely helpful.

[margaretmarch]

Where did you get the typed copy from? The ones I get from GRO are usually an image of the copy register that was submitted to GRO at the time.
The local Register Office should be able to help - they might even check the register for you without charge if you ring/email and give the details from the cert.
Margaret

[Olde Crone Holden]

Possibly whoever typed the copy ASSUMED that age 54 was incorrect - it is and was unusual for a 29 year old man to marry a 54 year old woman!

If they married in a church then the church register is the original, primary source of the information.

OC

[margaretmarch]

Possibly whoever typed the copy ASSUMED that age 54 was incorrect - it is and was unusual for a 29 year old man to marry a 54 year old woman!

If they married in a church then the church register is the original, primary source of the information.

OC

OC, do the church registers go to the Register Office when complete or do they stay at the church?
Margaret

[Olde Crone Holden]

Margaret

Church registers belong to the church and when they are full, are OFTEN deposited with the local County Records office (due to the strict laws governing the safe storage of old church records...many churches cannot fulfil the storage requirements, so pass the responsibility onto the County).

What the local Register Office gets is a copy certificate, made out by the Vicar at the time of the marriage. This ought to be exactly the same as the entry in the church register but I know from personal experience that it often isn't!

I do think it very odd that a 29year old man would marry a 54 year old woman. When did she die and how old was she declared at death?

OC

[margaretmarch]

Thanks for that OC, once we know names we can have a look for a death. I have one in my tree who married a woman 32 years older than him - it must have been for some money!! He was 22 and she 54 when they married in 1857
Margaret

[Alec]

OK, here goes.
My 2 x great grandfather was Henry Bowman, born ~1822/3, in Murton, Yorkshire. He spent most of his life in Skircoat, Halifax, Yorkshire and worked as a coachman to John Crossley.
I looked for a Henry Bowman born around the correct time andin the right area and found an entry in the LDS web site for a Henry Bowman,christened in Osbaldwick, Yorkshire, on 20th Oct 1822 (Murton is part of the parish of Osbaldwick). His parents were George and Mary Bowman.
It appears that in addition to Henry, they also had the following children;
Sarah, c. 1813 born in Murton
John c. 1815 born in Murton
Ellen c. 1817 born in Grimston Smithy (also part of the Osbaldwick parish)
George, c 1818 born in Murton
Joseph, c 1819 born in Grimston
Looking for a record of a marriage between George Bowman and Mary, I came across a marriage on the LDS, date 30th June 1807 in Osbaldwick. However these links are all a bit circumstantial so I wanted to compile a much additional supporting evidence as possible.
George and Mary Bowman can be found in the 1841 census, living in Osbaldwick, aged 60. In 1851 Mary appears to have died and George is living with Ellen, their youngest daughter.
So on to the younger George, the census records show that in;
1841 he is living in Osbaldwick and is an agricultural labourer
1851 he is living in Osbaldwick and is a labourer. He is aged 31, living with his wife Mary, aged 58, who is born in Murton.
1861 he is living in Heslington, working as a farm bailiff, aged 42, still living with Mary whose age is given as 66, who is born in
Marton.
1871, he is still living in Heslington, aged 52, working as
a farm bailiff. Mary is now aged 62 (clever that!) but appears to be the same individual as she is born in Murton.
1881, he is living in Milton Street, York, aged 62, and is a farmer. He has a new wife, Francis, aged 46 (so one extreme to the other!).
So George marries Mary between 1841 and 1851 and she dies sometime between 1871 and 1881. The only marriage I can find is that between George Bowman and Mary Nelson on the 4th December, 1847 at St Olave’s in York. I sent for the certificate from the GRO but unusually it is a type written copy, not a photocopy. The marriage certificate has the following details;
Groom George Bowman, aged 29 (fits), Gentleman’s servant (might fit given that he becomes a farm bailiff), father George Bowman, farmer (fits).
His residence is given as Barton Grange (there used to be a Burton Grange in the locality.
The bride is Mary Nelson, resident in Muston (could easily be mis-transcription of Murton so may fit). Her father was John Nelson, a shoemaker. The marriage takes place in the presence of Ellen Bowman (Georges has a sister Ellen). The real problem is that Mary’s age is given as 24.
In 1841 there was a Mary Nelson living next door to George senior and Mary. Her age was given as 45 so would have been born around 1796. I can find no trace of a Mary Nelson, born in Murton in the 1820’s but did find one born in 1793/4, c. 17th June
1794, whose father was John Nelson.
I have found a record of a death for Mary Bowman, December 1878, in York. Her approximate date of birth is given as 1793, but I haven’t applied for a Death Certificate so can’t prove whether this is the correct person.
I have looked quite hard for other individually who could fit the facts, and for other m,arriages but can find none. My belief is that Mary’s age has been mis-read. I did query this with the GRO and had (a not entirely convincing) assertion that the bride’s age is correct at 24.

[Inahaystack]

Strange that the GRO sent you a typed copy. I have received a couple of hundred certs and not one of them has been a typed copy. I don't like the typed copies - just doesn't feel right ! - thats why I never order copies from the Local Registration Office.

Nina

[kylejustin]

i have two typed copies, both deaths, one from 1855, the other from 1956, both of yorkshire deaths. all of your work seems to add up alec, you could always get mary's death, and see if george is listed as her husband.

[margaretmarch]

I agree, it all seems to fit with the only contradictory evidence a typed copy of a handwritten record - so for me it's the record that is most likely to be at fault. The only way to resolve it is to find the place the holds the original register and either look at the entry or get a copy of the original.
Margaret

[Olde Crone Holden]

Hmmm - the familysearch pilot site has this marriage and they also have Mary's age at 24. As the transcribers' are presumably working from original church records then it must LOOK like 24. Whether that was a mistake by the Vicar who recorded it, who can now tell!

As Margaret says, you will need to track down the St Olave records and get a photocopy of the marriage entry - or get someone to check it for you. I'll have a look on familysearch to see where they say the records are.

EDIT - originals at the Borthwick Institute, York. Careful, they have both parish register AND Bishop's Transcript, which of course is a copy of the parish register!

OC

[Janet in Yorkshire]

John Nelson, shoemaker, 78 yrs, was living in Murton in 1841, with Margaret 76 yrs and Jane 40 yrs.

There is a place called MUSTON, but it's near Filey, rather than York. Both place names look very similar in 1841 census.

Jay

[Christine in Herts]

I do think it very odd that a 29year old man would marry a 54 year old woman. When did she die and how old was she declared at death?
OC

Thanks for that OC, once we know names we can have a look for a death. I have one in my tree who married a woman 32 years older than him - it must have been for some money!! He was 22 and she 54 when they married in 1857
Margaret

That kind of age-gap is not unknown even in current days, and it's not necessarily for any reason other than love. I know of a forthcoming marriage where the groom will be just 33 and the bride will be 52+. There is no suggestion that there are any motives on either side other than real affection.

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

Christine

But you must admit, it is unusual, especially as there is confusion over her age anyway.

I also think, back then, MOST men would be wanting to have a family. However, you are quite right, love conquers all!

OC

[Christine in Herts]

I will certainly concede that it is unusual, OC!

Christine

[margaretmarch]

Christine

But you must admit, it is unusual, especially as there is confusion over her age anyway.

I also think, back then, MOST men would be wanting to have a family. However, you are quite right, love conquers all!

OC

Either that or a big pot of money!
Margaret

[colin taylor]

I have a typed copy of a marriage cert and did not believe the occupation shown as " Potter "... I queried it with the Regidter Office and they sent me a photocopy of the part I had questioned and it did say " Potter "... but why not send a photocopy of the complete certificate.

[margaretmarch]

I have a typed copy of a marriage cert and did not believe the occupation shown as " Potter "... I queried it with the Regidter Office and they sent me a photocopy of the part I had questioned and it did say " Potter "... but why not send a photocopy of the complete certificate.

They are not allowed by law to issue anything other than a certified copy on their special paper. A photocopy is not allowed. Also the original register entry might not have been in their possession only a copy.
Margaret

[Christine in Herts]

They are not allowed by law to issue anything other than a certified copy on their special paper. A photocopy is not allowed. Also the original register entry might not have been in their possession only a copy.
Margaret

I hadn't picked up on that - though I suppose it follows from their function. I do know that not all register offices have the equipment to photocopy registers without damaging them, hence the need for transcribed copies.

Christine