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  • Alfred Bradley .. and others

    My gggg grandparents named their first child Alfred Bradley in 1820. My gggg grandfather was of Jewish stock & all the other children have "very Jewish" names (don't wish to be offensive) There is no Alfred or Bradley in either his or his wife's family trees. (actually, I can't find a marriage) The only slight possibility is that Alfred was the result of an affair or that the woman (Elizabeth) living with my gggg grandfather on the census records is not the Elizabeth he was with for Alfred's birth, but an Elizabeth Bradley. I've tried everywhere I can think of to find out why they gave him this name...looked up doctors/clergymen/traced Bradley families etc...am now mailing local history societies. The could be several places involved...Leicester/Nottingham/Northants/Portsea...I really want to appeal here to anyone with Bradleys in their family tree....where do I post ? Thanks
    Last edited by Caroline; 08-10-10, 10:00.

  • #2
    I have moved your thread to Research Qs and As for you.

    I have Bradleys in my own direct line, but these aren't familiar I am afraid!! Mine started out in Shropshire and finished up in Essex.
    Caroline
    Caroline's Family History Pages
    Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

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    • #3
      What is Alfred's surname??

      Do you have the baptisms of the other children????? Just thought............if they were Jewish, do you have any records with mother's names??

      Can you give us the census details where you found the family, please.........we might see something.

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      • #4
        It would be unusual for a Jewish family to have a child baptised C of E, so I would guess his "real" name was something Jewish, like Aaron for example, but his everyday name was something recognisably English.

        Have you tried looking for synagogue records? Jewish first names are a nightmare to trace as they appear to change them for every record.

        OC

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        • #5
          OC.......don't the Jewish records always have the mother's name as well????? Or have I just been lucky with my couple?

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          • #6
            Thank you very much...I've got to leave shortly for a couple of days away, but I'll be back next week & that will serve you right (didn't expect anyone to answer so quickly) I've got the details, & quite a lot of people have looked over them. By the way, Harry's Mum, Alfred's brother/stepbrother was transported to Australia & there are quite a few websites by his descendants. There's a question mark over his paternity...but I think I'll try & find Alfred's namesake first (assuming there was one)

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            • #7
              Before you go (and I'm away for a couple of days as well)..

              What's the surname???

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              • #8
                Oh, I've got to go....but...general information. He was baptised in a CofE church (some of his siblings were...some weren't...can only assume an informal Jewish ceremony or didn't bother) His mother (can't find a marriage) doesn't appear to have been Jewish

                Sorry, I should have waited till I had more time to reply before I posted. Didn't expect such a quick response....thanks for being so friendly....I will return !

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                • #9
                  So, how do you know the family were Jewish? If you are going purely by first name, do remember that both Hebrews and protestant nonconformists take their firat names from the Old Testament, so (fir example) a child named Rebecca could either be of Jewish faith or protestant nonconformist.

                  OC

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                  • #10
                    Harry's Mum....the surname is Asher....baptised Nottingham, St Peter's. His brother/stepbrother transported to Australia was Samuel Lyon Asher...his father is listed as William Asher /Alfred's as Lyon Asher...used to think William & Lyon were the same person, but my current thinking is that they were different people but that William was the father of George (his first child), but Lyon was the father of Samuel Lyon/Alfred/the subsequent children. George & Samuel Lyon's mother was Elizabeth Barfield & she was also the mother of Lyon's youngest child, Reuben. Whether she was the mother of Alfred & Lyon's other children, I don't know....maybe it was an Elizabeth Bradley (Alfred Bradley). An Elizabeth Bradley has been suggested by some people...she came from an adjoining village in Northants to Elizabeth Barfield, but she married someone else & lived in Northants all her life. Maybe Alfred was the result of an affair ?

                    Just thinking I can't inflict this family on you. If you're still game, I'll set it out in a more orderly way next week.

                    Have a good time away

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                    • #11
                      OC....will reply while I can....the father, Lyon Asher, was born in Germany & I've found what are almost certain links to Jewish families & to the Jewish community in Portsea in particular (spreading out from there to links with Jewish families in Kent & London). But I can find no indication that he was a practising Jew....Leics & Notts still have the highest numbers (by a long way) of Ashers today...more in either county than in London. I've been in touch with quite a few Ashers there & they've all heard tell of German/ Jewish roots (which I hadn't) But in this area they soon seem to have switched to "very English names" & to have abandoned the faith. But you're right....it's circumstantial

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                      • #12
                        Phew!!!!!!!!! I'll have a go at sorting that out......it's a bit like my Ariels.....lol

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                        • #13
                          Alfred Bradley ASHER son of Leyon Asher and Elizabeth baptised 12 July 1820 at St Peters, Nottingham. Father was a licensed hawker and they lived at Bridlesmith Gate.


                          I have Baptism for Samuel Lyon Asher too on my Nottingham CDS. 22 Jan 1818 St Mary, Nottingham. Parents William & Elizabeth - Hawker - living Newcastle St.
                          Last edited by WendyPusey; 08-10-10, 12:17.
                          Wendy



                          PLEASE SCAN AT 300-600 DPI FOR RESTORATION PURPOSES. THANK YOU!

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                          • #14
                            Make it easier if there was only one William Asher in the same place at the same time.......lol

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                            • #15
                              Samuel Lyon Asher baptised 22-1-1818 St Marys.

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                              • #16
                                Ha ! I'm still here.....just.....PLEASE....don't go wandering down the Asher route alone...you'll get AWFULLY confused. There are a LOT of William & Elizabeth Ashers & a real joker in the pack.....a Clementine Elizabeth Asher married to a William Asher...half the time she calls herself Clementine & half the time Elizabeth....so it looks like 2 couples. I'll be back out & spell out exactly what I know (which will take a fair while). Have a good weekend, everyone

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                                • #17
                                  Hello..back from my nephew's wedding. A nice present for a future family researcher...his surname is found pretty frequently in the area where he now lives, but that's not where his family originates. Hope everyone is well.

                                  Back to the Ashers. I'll write down what I know from the oldest date onwards...I researched backwards, up many dead ends of course, but this will give an overview.I might have to keep leaving off.

                                  First of all, as I've said, there were/are a lot of Ashers in Leics/Notts....especially Williams & Elizabeths. The key area seems to be the Notts/Leics/Northants borders, with the families spreading out from there. There's a will for a William Asher in the seventeenth century (he was in Ruddington, Notts, heading towards Leics), so he must have been pretty well heeled....which my Ashers weren't. My ancestor, Lyon Asher, was born in Germany...the first sight of him in Britain is in Nottingham in 1820 (where he stayed). I don't know to what extent he was related to other Ashers already living in the area, but you'll see that there seems to be some kind of connection to a William Asher, at least. The relevant parishes in Nottingham are St Mary's & St Peter's....they're 2 of the city centre churches &, in the area where Lyon was living, you crossed the road & you moved from one to the other....ie the fact that he/William moved between the 2 parishes has no significance

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                                  • #18
                                    maybe lyon asher was an anglicised name? and he preferred william? or it was part of his name?

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                                    • #19
                                      Hello kylejustin & everyone....yes, anglicisation is one theory...sorry, yesterday I couldn't continue....will try now...

                                      19 Sep 1814 William Asher married Elizabeth Barfield at Leicester St Martin's. No family clues in the witnesses (Benjamin Bans & Mary Boll...s (illegible)) Bans said to be a woollen mill operative...so maybe Wiliam/Elizabeth were too ?) Both resident in the parish at the time of the marriage. Notes have been added to the Mormon site saying that William was born in 1788 in Leicester & Elizabeth was born in Northants. A William Asher was baptised at St Margaret's, Leicester in 1788, but he appears to have married an Elizabeth Hall at Leicester, All Saints in 1816...he was a soldier but was with her in Leicester as a Chelsea Pensioner. So that would seem to rule him out. But I have my doubts as to whether he was still with Elizabeth Barfield in 1816...I think she may have been with Lyon....but I'll come on to that later. The only candidate I can find for Elizabeth Barfield was baptised in Titchmarsh, Northants on 9 April 1792.

                                      They must have moved to Nottingham pretty quickly because.......

                                      4 Sep 1815 baptism of George Thomas Barfield/Bayfield at Nottingham St Mary's...parents William & Elizabeth Asher. Thomas Barfield was Elizabeth's Barfield's father. She did have a brother named George, but I doubt William would have let her have all the names (or that she'd have put her brother's name before her father's) The father of the William Asher baptised in Leicester in 1788 above was named George...so that would tie in. This looks like a late baptism....George looks like the George Asher who was married at Basford, Nottingham in 1831 & he seems to have emigrated to the US in 1840 & to have ended up in Apalachicola in Florida. I thought it odd that he hadn't gone to one of the big cities, so I checked Apalachicola out & discovered that, for a brief few years while George was there, it was the world's leading exporter of sponges...it had replaced Greece & even encouraged Greeks with "sponge expertise" to go & live there. The trade was controlled by a German/Jewish immigrant named Brack & when Lyon Asher died he had a sponge selling business in Nottingham....so it looks as though he had at least business links with George.

                                      22 Jan 1818 baptism of Samuel Lyon at St Mary's, Nottingham....parents William & Elizabeth Asher. Elizabeth Barfield had a brother named Samuel..neither of these names figure in the family of the William Asher baptised in Leicester in 1788. Maybe Lyon had become a VERY good friend...but would he have named a son without a name from his own family ?

                                      After this, William disappears from the record books....can't find him dead or alive. One very slim possibility with a strange coincidence....a William Asher (soldier) died in a military hospital in London in 1817. He was the same age as the William Asher born in Leicester & the hospital was in the name of the regiment with traditional links to the well to do William Asher of Ruddington (the names of the first sons continued to be William &, as far as I can see, they all served in that regiment) William from Leicester was also a soldier, but survived to live out his retirement in Leicester....considering coughing up for the military records. One dead end I've mentioned are a William & Elizabeth Asher in Arnold, Nottingham...she was actually Clementine Elizabeth Brown from Derby & he was a completely different William Asher. Sometimes she called herself Clementine, sometimes Elizabeth, so it looks like 2 different couples. When William died, she & the children went to Derby, where she died. There was also a William Asher of roughly the right age from a village near Elizabeth's home village of Titchmarsh....but he married someone else & stayed in Northants. I did think for a long time that William/Lyon was the same person, but I don't think Lyon would have named his first son George (but you never know) . It may also be that there's a William Asher who has been discounted because he wasn't baptised/had an adult baptism Anyway, onto Lyon.....

                                      12 July 1820 Alfred Bradley baptised Nottingham St Peter's.....parents Lyon & Elizabeth Asher This is the first sight of Lyon, born (according to census records) 1786/8 in Germany. He's also mentioned in Sep 1820 when he's summoned for not paying poor tax. Can't find a marriage for Lyon
                                      13 Nov 1822 Joseph baptised Nottingham St Mary's...parents Lyon & Elizabeth Asher .
                                      Other children with approx dates of birth taken from 1841 census
                                      Rosa (1826), Abraham (1827), Jacob (1831), Reuben (1834).

                                      "Lyon's Elizabeth" is called Betsy on the census records & is said to have been born in Titchmarsh. I was trying to find out about her before I'd sorted out William & assumed I was looking for an Elizabeth Bradley (Alfred Bradley). A friend went through the Titchmarsh register & eliminated all the Elizabeths baptised within a 10 year margin she couldn't find married or buried....she narrowed it down to 5 but there wasn't an Elizabeth Bradley. We had got Elizabeth Barfield among them because we hadn't found her marriage to William, but there was nothing to single her out from the others. Then I got a message from a fellow descendant via Ancestry, saying that Lyon's Betsy was an Elizabeth Bradley baptised in Thrapston (just down the road from Titchmarsh) in 1791....maybe she had grown up in Titchmarsh. That seemed eminently sensible, so I was happily ploughing on until my friend noticed that Elizabeth Bradley married Marshall Meadows in Thrapston on 8 April 1812 & stayed in Northants until her death. Then we found out that Lyon's youngest child, Reuben, named his only daughter Betsy Barfield (Asher)....so she does seem the most likely candidate & to form a link between Lyon & William.

                                      But I don't know what that link was & I don't know who Alfred Bradley was (or 2 people...one named Alfred & one named Bradley)....neither figure in the families. There was a cluster of Ashers & Bradleys in Market Harborough (Leics) & the surrounding villages....I've tried doctors/clergymen/prominent people....I'm now trying to find out if it was a local employer etc (Lyon was a hawker...in essence, he worked his way up to becoming quite a sucessful trader...but he may have started off working for a local shopkeeper etc) Maybe an Elizabeth Bradley was the mother of Alfred Bradley/the older children & Elizabeth Barfield was the mother of Reuben/the younger children. I just think that the whole thing makes more sense if Samuel Lyon is Lyon's first child (it would follow the Jewish naming pattern....William the son of Lyon), but I suppose there's no reason to expect these things to make sense. I'm asking someone if they can check the parish entries of the baptisms to see if there are any extra notes

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                                      • #20
                                        Have just had a reply from a poster via a private message. They have looked up the baptisms on CDs & found that William was described as "a hawker" & Lyon as a "licensed hawker". There is a difference....a licensed hawker was eminently more respectable, having his own horse & cart & was really a proper tradesman rather than a hawker as we would think of one today. Obviously, it's more than possible that Lyon just moved upwards. I'm hoping someone might come up with the original parish register to see if there were more details.

                                        One thing I forgot to mention was that by the time of one of the census records of Lyon's death (in 1860)....on the 1841 or 1851 census, there was a Joseph Asher, living very near to Lyon, who was also a hawker (wife Margaret). He was slightly older than Lyon...well, roughly the same age. He was from a family of Ashers in Packington, Leicestershire, but, as yet, I haven't been able to find any definite connection

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