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Cor, shows you how long it is since I got a certificate

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  • Cor, shows you how long it is since I got a certificate

    Just ordered a death cert from GRO:( and shocked its not £7 like it used to be.

  • #2
    I Know, same here, £9.25 was abit of a shock. It must be about 2/3 yrs since I last ordered one.

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    • #3
      blimey Heather where you been ??? Must admit I stop and think now before ordering one .

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      • #4
        I've only ordered one since the change. Probably would have ordered five or six in that time, if they'd still been seven pounds. Probably 10-20 if they'd put them down to a fiver! Hopefully if their revenue takes a big enough knock they might eventually do a u turn and look at making a price cut.

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        • #5
          Richard

          With the present cash crisis that would be a wonderful dream. I should hurry up and order more before they go up again, maybe in January when the 171/2 % VAT comes into force!

          Janet

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          • #6
            must say I do miss lurking waiting for the postman to call ? used to order most weeks not now though.

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            • #7
              January VAT goes up from 17.5% to 20%
              ~Val~

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              • #8
                Do they charge VAT on certificates?
                margaret

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                • #9
                  Hope when it comes it's stuffed with useful info Heather

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                  • #10
                    You must have missed all the chat on the boards about the price increase, Heather. I know I put in a bulk order before they went up.
                    ~ with love from Little Nell~
                    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                    • #11
                      Yes, I miss the thrill of those early certs coming. Id be all a-tremble as I opened them. I guess with the LMA records going online at ancestry, Ive not had to order many. Been brilliant for me that.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Janet View Post
                        Richard

                        With the present cash crisis that would be a wonderful dream. I should hurry up and order more before they go up again, maybe in January when the 171/2 % VAT comes into force!

                        Janet
                        You could possibly be right Janet. Personally though I think it is not a matter of if prices eventually go down, but when. Everything reaches a plateau, and they are about as high as realistically I think they can get away with. The digitisation of so many of the records, even though the system has been confined to internal use, must have significantly reduced their overheads. If, as I think is almost certain, at the end of this financial year they look at their accounts and see the new prices has actually killed trade, and lost them revenue, rather than raise it as no doubt they'd hoped, some clever clogs will work out by selling cheaper they would actually make some money..and as you say in the 'cash crisis' the government are missing a trick here. If they had been selling them for a fiver they'd have had a good 100 quid out of me last six months, instead they've made under a tenner. If I'm even half typical of their customers, who knows, they may already be considering changing course .....time will tell.

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                        • #13
                          quite agree Richard I have not ordered one for months really have to stop and think now, whereas before I ordered lots, I know it doesn't sound much more than the £7 but if you buy 3 the extra would have paid for one .

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                          • #14
                            Sorry. My mistake about VAT going up to 171/2% January, That was last January! How time flies. Of course it is going up to 20% come January 2011! Much easier to write that.:D

                            Have to say that in my lifetime I have never known items like certificates go DOWN in price, but you never know, pigs might fly one day. Sadly, I think we will just have to accept the higher prices. Fortunately for me I have most of the certs I want, though a few more are required but as I am unsure of the dates, I will have to wait until I have more detail, so yes I am now more cautious, but I also know that realistically my being cautious will not worry the GRO one little bit!

                            Now, clothes/electronic goods etc might be different when the new VAT comes in, as many shops may well be left with unsold winter goods/outdated electronics etc so then you get the bargains, at least what is left in the size/fashion etc you want!:D But this is when the double dip recession may hit us hard but the GRO will still remain steadfast!

                            Oh, Richard to have the thoughts of youth! I remember many years ago talking about the plateau for house prices, when our 4 bed detached house in the Midland suburbs reached the princely sum of £29,000 and we bought a 4 bed detached house in the South East for £35,000 with a £15,000 mortgage, mind you at 16% interest rate and a salary of £8,000 per annum! This was the days of the average terrace house costing about £6,000. Oh dear, where is that dream now?? House prices will go down, but it would be in your dreams to ever see those houses in that sort of price bracket ever again, at least unless the money we all had was so devalued that we could not afford to live at all!

                            Remember that if house prices were ever to get to that level again your salary would also have to drop back to the equivalent level, around £5,000 to £6,000 per annum!

                            Janet
                            Last edited by Janet; 27-08-10, 10:54.

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                            • #15
                              I agree with Janet. The GRO (or whatever it's called now) is not profit-driven and is not interested in market forces. It has us over a barrel and really does not care whether we buy certs or not - its primary role is custodian of public records, its secondary role is to supply certificated information of and about living people. Family historians are grudgingly indulged I'm afraid.

                              The price of certs will never come down...why should it? People will continue to pay whatever it costs - if you want a certificate badly enough, you HAVE to pay it as there is nowhere else to buy a certificate! As long as the GRO breaks even, they will not care about loss of "business". If they make a loss then they will just put up the price of a cert to an even higher level.

                              OC

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                              • #16
                                "The price of certs will never come down...why should it? People will continue to pay whatever it costs"

                                But that's the whole point, many of us, me included simply are not. You cannot force blood from a stone. Rising prices when people have less money, will result in selling less, and I have little doubt it has for them. The things is you say they wont care as long as they break even. That's exactly it they havn't been breaking even, they had a six million pound loss, which is why they raised prices, but if that's hit sales, they will likely continue to make a loss, possibly even have made that situation worse. This shortfall gets covered by the tax payer, which is a situation they have said is unacceptable, so in that case what other options do they have, if rising prices hasn't worked, but to cut them?

                                I'm rather flattered by Janet putting my optimism on this front down to the naivity of youth. (I've just come out of hospital after an operation and feeling much older than my years ..which arn't that tender anyway)..but I do think a price cut though maybe not imminent is eventually inevitable. I do think we will always pay more than Scotland, but in 5 years time, we will have a system online, probably similar to the 1911 census site, maybe 6.00 for 60 credits, each cert to view being 30 credits. The money they would make from this will ensure it happens at some point, I'm certain of that..market forces and all that.
                                Last edited by Richard; 27-08-10, 11:57.

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                                • #17
                                  Richard

                                  I meant - if you need a certificate badly enough, you will HAVE to pay whatever they charge. If you lost your birth cert for example and needed a replacement, you would have to pay the asking price as you have no alternative.

                                  Historical certificates are a self indulgence I'm afraid and we buy them according to whether or not we can afford them, just like any other hobby or interest.

                                  I wasn't aware that ONS had made a loss but my gloomy prediction is that they will merely put up prices to cover the shortfall ...and so they should, why should the taxpayer indulge us in our hobby?

                                  I wish I could share your conviction that English and Welsh certs will eventually go on line. I have been waiting for this to happen since 2001, when they grandly trumpeted their intention to do so. We all know what happened. The last time we discussed this, Guy said that the digitisation project was virtually complete - or a very good chunk of it had been completed. But there has been not the slightest move to put these records on line and only one half-hearted effort to change the law in order for this to be a legal possibility.

                                  OC

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                                  • #18
                                    :(Oh dear another mistake. Must stop referring to the GRO, though on the site for Identity and Passport Services which is where you order certs, it still refers to GRO.

                                    Richard, where have you got your figures from that the IPS via certificate service is losing money? I have not seen this reported anywhere.

                                    As OC says if people want certs then they will buy them whatever the price asked. OH lost his Birth Cert and had to pay the price to obtain a new one, no choice. I was never aware that the old GRO or the new IPS was a service designated for genealogists. We as genealogists happen to use it to further our hobby interests, but that is of no concern whasoever to the powers that be.

                                    How do you think they operated back in the 1960's and 1970's when there was NO interest in genealogy whatsoever? Interestingly enough the prices only increased as the hobby increased! :DPerhaps there will ne no further increase if people stop buying the certs for genealogy purposes!

                                    Anything that goes online will be paid for and heavily. The certs may be £6/8 but you can bet the admin charge will be heavy via credits or subs if the online facility ever happens. Census and other docs do not come cheap on FMP or Ancestry, as I hear most people grumble about the cost of these sites. You have a hobby then expect to pay.

                                    Janet
                                    Last edited by Janet; 27-08-10, 13:09.

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                                    • #19
                                      "The last time we discussed this, Guy said that the digitisation project was virtually complete - or a very good chunk of it had been completed. But there has been not the slightest move to put these records on line and only one half-hearted effort to change the law in order for this to be a legal possibility"

                                      OC, this is the core of it, I think if they were making money, you'd be right, they'd stick to just using the digital images internally, because the head ache getting the law changed to display them online seems to be. But if they carry on losing money, then they may drive that law change. I don't think the option of keep ramping up the prices is even there, because any imagined gain they'd get from that, is more than offset by the loss in orders. I think your looking at it slightly askew, the primary beneficiary of cutting prices wont be us, the genealogists, but the GRO itself. Because of this, I do remain convinced, eventually we will see a digital system, and it will be considerably cheaper, stands to reason, but it's just a matter of how long we wait for that which I really have no clue of...do they see sense sooner or later?

                                      Janet the 6 million figure net loss was quoted on a board I use (not this one), but I did check it out at the time, and it was genuine (think it was end of 2008 financial year rather than 2009). Guy Etchells was contributing to that thread, might have been him who quoted it sorry don't remember, but was a genuine fact, they linked to the official government report and I read it at the time.

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                        (The GRO) its primary role is custodian of public records, its secondary role is to supply certificated information of and about living people. Family historians are grudgingly indulged.
                                        Looking at it another way, I would imagine that income from family historians has provided a sizeable subsidy towards what you rightly say is the GRO's primary role.

                                        Like others I bought a pile of certificates before the price hike and have bought none since. That's not to say there aren't some I would like to buy, but they are mostly of the kind that will only offer small assistance, if any (an example is a death I can't find: I could buy the DC of one of her children who died aged 3, just to see if she was the informant and therefore narrow down the date of her own demise - but it's only a slim chance). I wouldn't hesitate to buy such certs for a fiver - I'd probably buy three or four others as well - but at the current (and previous) price, it's a nono. So instead of getting say £25 from me, they get nothing - and it doesn't pay them NOT to issue certs.

                                        So I do think Richard has a point. I too saw the report he mentioned, and while the GRO doesn't have to make a profit, it's clearly undesirable for it to be running at such a loss. Ideally the Government will see its way clear to legalising the digital option; much of the work has been done and a large part of the costs involved in issuing certified copies would also disappear. Everyone would win.

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