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Total mystery; any ideas?

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  • Total mystery; any ideas?

    Hi,

    I think I have found an actual mystery. Most of my 'mysteries' turn out to be something simple, usually through my own stupidity or haste lol, but this one might actually not be anything to do with me. I'd be grateful for any insight...

    My 2xG grandfather was William WASHINGTON, born in 1827, Wotton Underwood in Buckinghamshire. His parents were Charles WASHINGTON and Elizabeth GEORGE. I know they were married in October 1823 at St Michael and All Angels, in Waddesdon Bucks, he was a widow, she a spinster. I can see a marriage of a Charles Washington, to a Hannah Dormer in 1821 but I can't find her death. I can't find any Hannah Washington in the area on any census.

    I am trying to trace the birth of Charles, but struggling. Here's the information I have:

    1841 census shows him as age 50, ag lab. (HO107 39 22/4 2 courtesy TNA).
    1851 census shows him as age 60, road lab. (HO107 1721 118 2 courtesy TNA).
    1861 census shows him as age 62 or 68 I can't tell, still ag lab. (RG09 86492 18 courtesy TNA)

    His death was either Q2 1861, Q4 1862 or Q2 1864. I haven't got the death certificate, due to the expense but also I am not sure how accurate the age at death would be and it doesn't tell me a lot more than that.

    Charles and Elizabeth had many children, from 1826 to 1848.

    From the above information, he should have been born in 1791 or 1799. I can't find any corresponding birth or baptism at all.

    What is really strange though, is that there is a Charles Washington baptised in 1775, in Ludgershall (sometimes Oxfordshire, sometimes Bucks, very close to Wotton Underwood. This can't possibly be him surely?! That would mean he would have been 73 when their last child was born and that he had lied/been mistaken on every census.

    The 'mystery' comes in that when I look at the public member trees on a****try there are LOADS of ones that share my ancestors, and list this guy as the father of my William Washington. They even cite the census as evidence. Each tree is different so I don't think they've just been copied. One tree traces the line back to 1108 - so plenty of work has been put in.

    I don't understand how all these people think that could be him - or how can not be seeing what they are.

    Sorry to make this post even longer, but I don't want to miss out anything. I have been in contact with someone, and found a court transcript from 1820 (Midsummer session, Buckinghamshire Quarter Sessions Ludgershall and Dinton) where George Washington (the above Charles' father) says "No other Washington in Ludgershall but my family". This on a personal rootsweb page, am I allowed to post a link to it?

    Any help would be really appreciated, as this is a massive hurdle and a brickwall to the rest of that line.

    Many thanks,
    Rachel x

  • #2
    Hi Rachel
    From the NBI there's a burial for a Hannah Washington age 20 on 15th Dec 1822 at Waddesdon, St Michael & All Angels. Years covered for this church 1813-1840

    Moggie

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    • #3
      His death was either Q2 1861, Q4 1862 or Q2 1864. I haven't got the death certificate, due to the expense but also I am not sure how accurate the age at death would be and it doesn't tell me a lot more than that.

      Hi Rachel
      There are Charles W births registered in the Aylesbury district in Q2 1861 & Q4 1862 so I'm guessing your man died in 1864 but as you say what extra info will you get from buying the cert which you don't already know.

      Moggie

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      • #4
        Sorry not much help - just me thinking aloud..........I see his place of birth is "not known" both in 1851 and 1861, and he aged fairly consistently between censuses (I'm pretty sure the 1861 says aged 68). As his wife's place of birth was Waddesdon we can probably safely assume that he wasn't born there - surely they would have known if they came from the same village. Equally he probably wasn't born in Wooton Underwood as presumably people would have known if he lived in his home village. From 1841 census it seems he was born in county (Buckinghamshire). As to the baptism in Ludgershall I don't believe someone born in or before 1775 could have been mistaken for a 40 year old in 1841 (or even 44 allowing for the rounding down in that census.
        Judith passed away in October 2018

        Comment


        • #5
          Don't forget the county boundaries around there have changed several times over the years. Although he might have said he was born' in county' in 1841 it may look like a different county now. (Say Oxfordshire?)

          Recording 'not known' in the other censuses is quite odd - maybe he was brought there by his parents when he was a baby? Maybe he had something to hide?

          Anne

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by maudarby View Post
            Hi Rachel
            From the NBI there's a burial for a Hannah Washington age 20 on 15th Dec 1822 at Waddesdon, St Michael & All Angels. Years covered for this church 1813-1840

            Moggie
            Ahem. Thank you so much Moggie..... your post has made me realise that it does help to search for the death of the married Hannah, not her maiden name - doh! No wonder I couldn't find a Hannah Dormer burial. What an idiot!

            Thank you again, that has at least helped us solve that part of it!

            Rachel

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            • #7
              Hi
              Charles Washington born 1775 Ludgershall (parents George and Hester) had a brother George bap. 11 July 1773. Could he be the George who said "No other Washington in Ludgershall but my family"?
              He might be the George Washington who married Sarah Langfield 7 February 1795 Ramsbury, Wiltshire
              Can find two births that could be to the same George and Sarah
              Edward Washington bap. 3 May 1795 Ludgershall, Bucks
              Charles Washington bap. 22 October 1797 Ramsbury, Wilts

              Cant see any burials in Ramsbury
              This Charles would be a much better match on age and maybe tie in to Ludgershall. If George and Sarah were in Ramsbury for a bit, might account Charles not knowing for sure where he was born?
              Jon

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              • #8
                Oooo, jonny...that is an interesting thought, I'll work on it in a bit and come back to you. Thanks so much... Rachel

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi again

                  This isn't going so well. I need to explain something I've just realised but am really struggling to type it without confusing myself, sorry. Here goes...

                  I have just found the full transcript of the court session I mentioned above, and the details really don't fit which just makes my disbelief of all those trees on ancestry even more justified (or me even more stupid).... amongst the transcript from 1820, the following facts emerge:

                  George Washington says his wife is Mary. He says he is 73. He says he married and had a large family in Ludgershall then in about 1805 he moved to Great Kimble. He states his children were

                  John, married.
                  Hannah, married to a HALL
                  George, died in Ireland
                  Charles, married and been a soldier for several years *is this the one who was baptised in 1775??*
                  William, now over 21 and in the militia
                  Thomas, married and moved to East Indies for life.

                  George also states that there are no other Washingtons in Ludgershall, and no Thomas other than his son.

                  In all the related trees on a****try, the Charles Washington born in Ludgershall in 1775 is the son of George Washington and Esther (Hester) Dormer. This surely can't be?

                  Am I right in thinking that either the trees have the correct couple named George and Esther Washington, but have the wrong Charles Washington son, or they have the correct Charles Washington born in 1775 but the wrong parents.

                  Is that right?

                  I have just thought of another option..... the George Washington in the court transcripts could be lying/mistaken about there being no other Washingtons in the area. From the LDS, there does seem to be an entire family of Washingtons with different names to those above. There seems to be a marriage of George Washington and Esther Dormer on 11 November 1766 in Ludgershall. Her names is sometimes spelt Ester or Hester. They seem to have had the following children, all in Ludgershall:

                  Hannah 1770, Charls 1775, William 1781, Levi 1783, Thomas 1786, Sarah 1790.

                  So that would seem to be two Charles Washingtons both born in Ludgershall at a similar time, neither of which fit the Charles Washington in my census'.

                  Help!

                  Rachel x
                  Last edited by Rachandgarry; 27-07-10, 16:22. Reason: blown a gasket

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Go with your own feelings Rachel. It sounds wrong to me too, but I'm not familiar with your tree or the area.

                    My experience of trees on Ancestry, though, is quite wide! I help run a One Name study and quite often look at what people have put on there. Mainly for fun!!!!! We have so many records which are unavailable to casual 'internet' genealogists that I usually spot the mistakes in the trees at a glance. Yes, the trees sometimes appear different to each other BUT when it comes to the mistakes they all make the same ones, which clearly shows to me that they have got stuck and then ..... copied someone else!

                    Far better to work it out for yourself - and great fun to be able to smile at those mistakes. I wouldn't bother telling any of them, though - most people don't seem to want to know, strangely.

                    Anne

                    Edit: It appears to me that people who are really serious about their tree make it private on Ancestry. If there are some private ones which look promising it might be worth contacting them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Anne. I definitely have my tree private, I would hate to have made a mistake somewhere and then have that travelling around the world as fact, you know? I'd feel terrible! I just can't understand the number of trees on there stating 1775 as year of birth, and proudly having 4 or more sources of evidence for that fact including three census' which say 1791. It baffles me. The downside is, of course, although I think I can see there's isn't right, I don't know that I can find what IS right and I might have hit a brickwall for a while. Grrrrr!

                      Rachel

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                      • #12
                        Hi
                        But George and Ester in Ludgershall also had
                        John 1768 (mum is Heather on Record Search England Births + Christenings)
                        George 1773
                        Daniel 1777
                        Ester 1779
                        This site seems to bring up different results every time you look! Maybe some of these children died, it would be surprising if they didn't, all the names George mentioned do seem to be there. If wife Esther died as well then there's a marriage in Dinton, Bucks 1806 - George Washington and Mary Pevrill. So if he did remarry it could still just about make sense!
                        Confused myself about which George it was in 1820, but it does seem possible his son George is still Charles' father. If there were only two births to George + Sarah and then he dies (in Ireland? was he in the military too?) there's a marriage in Wotton Underwood, 17 April 1800, Sarah Washington and Joseph Cherry. Could she be the widowed mother of Charles? Two children there, Amelia Cherry and William Cherry. And this is where Charles was.
                        Jon

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                        • #13
                          Hi Rachel
                          Its Jules..Do you have the info for me to look in London Rd Cemetery?? No rush, its just that I may be able to go tomorrow...x

                          Researching/ MADGWICK, RAMUS, PONT, MITCHELL, CHAMPION, GOSSLING, VAN STAADEN.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Jon
                            I too found the 1806 marriage of George W & Mary Pevrill but thought that even if the marriage entry says that George was a widower we still wouldn't know if it was George the father or George the son but the Sarah Washington/Joseph Cherry looks promising and I have found the burial of a Joseph Cherry at Wooton Underwood age 53 in 1826. No sign of Sarah. The coverage for W U is 1813-1839.

                            Moggie

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Flora1966 View Post
                              Hi Rachel
                              Its Jules..Do you have the info for me to look in London Rd Cemetery?? No rush, its just that I may be able to go tomorrow...x
                              LOL see, this is how distracted I get!! Will be 2 seconds..... xx

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                ok x

                                Researching/ MADGWICK, RAMUS, PONT, MITCHELL, CHAMPION, GOSSLING, VAN STAADEN.

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                                • #17
                                  Jules I can't find it. Panicking just a little bit now. It has to be here somewhere. I can't rememember if I have written it down somewhere, or had it on the computer. I need to go and get my son from nursery, but will look again later. I'm really sorry! Don't worry if you can't do it, I understand. (Did you see my other thread on organising notes? This rather proves my point, I must take more care. :-( )

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Ok not a problem....I will still go when you can find your notes lol x

                                    Researching/ MADGWICK, RAMUS, PONT, MITCHELL, CHAMPION, GOSSLING, VAN STAADEN.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Rachel - I've just remembered a service which the Bucks FHS do. You can get them to send you a transcript of all instances of one particular name in all the parishes they have transcribed (they haven't completed all parishes or all dates). It might be worth investing in a WASHINGTON list for Buckinghamshire?

                                      Anne

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Don't be influenced by other people's trees - no matter how many of them there are. My 3x g.grandfather is the "end of the line" in my tree, but there are trees from Canada to New Zealand showing a father for him who is completely wrong. The record of his birth is missing altogether - according to Cornwall OPCs, there are pages missing from the Parish Registers - the censuses show where he claimed to be born. There is another birth shown in a completely different part of Cornwall and in the absence of anything else, people have "selected" that one. Following that one forward in time, it is clear that it's the wrong one.

                                        My brother has been trying for years to get the error put right, but it seems that people would prefer to have the wrong ancestor than go without!

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