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  • Looking for a black sheep

    Hi,
    I am trying to find what happened to my great grandfather.

    I have posted about this on another forum without success, so do not hold out too much hope.

    He was John George Hort born in Tenby Pembrokeshire in 1860 (I have the cert)

    He was the great grandson of Josiah Hort Archbishop of Tuam a friend of Jonathon Swift.

    I know that he was a merchant navy officer CC No 00109 who served on several ships including the Esmeralda as an apprentice in 1881, the Shannon in 1883 and the John Byng in 1886.

    I know that he married my great grandmother Alice Louisa Frye in 1888 (I have the cert)

    I know that after 2 months of marriage he signed up for the Winchester Rifles for 12 years. He lied about his age stating that he was 22 when he was 28 and also stated that he was unmarried. So it looks like he did a runner.

    In August 1889 he bought himself out of the army for the sum of 18 shillings

    2 days later my grandfather John George Beresford Hort was born.

    The 1891 census shows my grandfather aged 1 living with his mother Alice Hort with her parents and sibblings in Radnor Street Chelsea - no mention of his father.

    After this date I have no record of either parent until Alice dies in Fulham in 1927, on the death cert she is described as the widow of John Hort a Merch Navy Officer.

    I have no records of John George Hort from 1889 when he bought himself out of the army.

    On my grandfathers wedding cert of 1912 he is desribed as a merch navy mate deceased
    ( I suspect he may not have been)

    I wonder if he returned to her or just disappeared. The odd thing is that neither John nor Alice show up on the 1901 or 1911 census or any other records. They may have gone abroad.

    My grandfather aged 11 can be found on the 1901 census in Fulham visiting an Edwin P Carpenter with an Eva Nelson - Alice's widowed younger sister (that is another story - google Eva Frye Nelson Aveling Eleanor Marx)

    I wonder he went back to sea and if there are any merchant navy records of John after 1889 or indeed any records of John or Alice Hort.

    I don't hold out much hope, he was probably not a very nice man which explains why my grandfather never spoke of him but I would like to find out what happened - my mother always told me that he died falling from the mast of a ship but I suspect that was just a yarn.

    If anyone could help I would be eternally grateful

    Dave Beresford

  • #2
    Hi - have you looked http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/d...nline/navy.asp
    There are a few Hort's..wonder if he used his real name...also, there is a Hort who left for SA in 1893..
    born 1857 so not too out...http://www.findmypast.co.uk/passenge...mit=1&offset=0
    plus a few more that may fit the bill.
    Last edited by naomiatt; 12-07-10, 07:35.

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    • #3
      I see he is an AB in 1883 on the Shannon, but you already have this info. Can't see much else at the moment sorry.
      Julie
      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

      .......I find dead people

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      • #4
        I've had a good look too, including passenger lists to and from the UK, but I haven't found anything you don't have already.

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        • #5
          Thanks for looking everyone.

          there were no references to a John Hort in the NA although his name was sometimes transcripted as Hart.

          He may well have gone to South Africa, there are also Horts travelling to America, Australia and Canada (his mother was born in Nova Scotia). It is difficult to prove anything from passenger lists and searches in those countries have so far drawn a blank. My one hope of tracing him is that if he went back to sea he would have to use his Certificate of Competance and would have to use his real name.

          I had intended to visit the Archives and try to find more information (hopefully his seamans pouch) but in light of my discovery of him joining the army I am unsure if it would be worthwhile.

          He left Alice in 1888, she was two months pregnant with my grandfather - he joined the Winchester rifles and declared himself unmarried ( a false statement was a serious offence punishable by imprisonment and hard labour) so he must have been pretty desperate.

          Everthing points to him simply having disappeared without trace but there are two nagging questions

          Why if he had left her and disappeared did she name my grandfather John George Beresford Hort? (Beresford was her mothers name and oddly mine)

          Why are neither Alice nor John present on the 1901 or 1911 censuses?

          I believe that my grandfather was sent to boarding school at the expense of his uncle Charles Hort an army chaplain before this he is sighted with his aunt; Eva Nelson nee Frye in the 1901 census, she had been involved in a major scandal involving the suicide? / murder? of Eleanor Marx (Karl's daughter) but died in 1904.

          Many Thanks

          Dave Beresford
          Last edited by Guest; 12-07-10, 19:48.

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          • #6
            That Eleanor Marx story is fascinating - I hadn't come across it before.

            I suppose it's always possible he changed his name for some reason - maybe he was on the run from the law, or he'd deserted from a military establishment.

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            • #7
              I don't think that he was on the run from the law otherwise he could not have used his real name when joining the army.

              He bought himself out of the army in 1889 for 18 shillings you can see his discharge papers on Find My Past they have his signature (eerily like my own) and even details of his tattoos; one of which is the initials AF - Alice Frye.

              He may have well adopted an alias after this date but I think if he went back to sea he must have used his real name as this was on his certificates.

              Dave

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              • #8
                I have searched but cannot find anything new, sorry.
                Having searched, I saw your posts on other sites, too.
                The family is very interesting.

                By the way, Jonathan Swift is buried in St Patrick's Cathedral, Dublin, but you probably knew that.
                Joy

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                • #9
                  I expect that you have looked at all the Horts here? - http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy....ntury=&decade=
                  Joy

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                  • #10
                    I don't know if it's relevant - you'd need to do some eliminating checks - but there's an article:
                    The Times, Thursday, Dec 12, 1907; pg. 6; Issue 38514; col F
                    "Wreck Of A Trawler."
                    in which "Second Engineer John Hort, of Hull" was amongst those rescued from a trawler which ran aground on a skerry off Dunnet Head (N coast of Scotland).

                    This obituary has lots of detail about the family and title:
                    The Times, Saturday, Mar 09, 1935; pg. 17; Issue 47008; col A
                    "Sir Arthur Hort, Harrow Master And Gardener "

                    Christine
                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                    • #11
                      Dear Dave Beresford,
                      This is no help to you I am afraid, but I wondered if you might be able to help me! (Sorry!)
                      I am currently researching the Marx family, and came across your posting when searching for Eva Holt/Frye/Nelson/Aveling. It is proving hard to find much out about this young aspiring English actress, or to gain an insight into her perspective on Edward Aveling/Alec Nelson. I would be very grateful if you could point me further than google to find out a little more, and it would be truly terrific if you had an image of Eva or anything else.
                      I am a published biographer, my last book won the Daily Mail Biographers Club Prize, and if you are interested there is more on my website www.claremulley.com
                      It would be great to hear from you, either via this forum, or email removed for privacy reasons
                      Thank you very much for any help or leads you might be able to give me, and all best wishes,
                      Clare
                      Last edited by Velma Dinkley; 14-07-10, 17:21. Reason: Removal of email address

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                      • #12
                        Hi Clare,

                        We don't allow email addresses in posts on the forum for security reasons, so I have removed it.

                        However Dave can send you a personal message through FTF.

                        Velma

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                        • #13
                          opps, sorry Velma!

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