My European not brick but reinforced concrete wall !

[john_harvey]

Hi everyone,
I am trying to get to the bottom of the "european branch" of my family.
I cant seem to find were they are from and how the name is correctly spelt.
I have many spelling's of the name and still not sure which is correct.
I have VonSpriendenburg
Spriendenburg
VonSpreindenberg
Spreindenberg
VonSpreindenborg
Spreindenborg
VonSpreindenburg
Spreindenburg
Von Spendingbourg
And few other variants !
My great Grandad Thomas Harvey married a Betsy (? Elizabeth) Von Spendingbourg on 6th August 1883 in St Thomas church Stepney. (they lived in Medland street)
I believe Elizabeth's father to be Henry Francis Von Spendinbourg ?
And his father John Von Spreidenberg ?


Any help anyone can give greatfully received.
Kind regards,,,,,,John

[Christine in Herts]

Why are you so sure that there is a definitive spelling?

Until this century, names could be very fluid - and the century isn't completely exempt from that. Computerisation has encouraged standardisation of spelling because "fuzzy logic" is hard for computers. You can look at all those names and deduce that they are (almost certainly) the same, but a computer would find it much harder.

I'll definitely leave my footer in place, and you'll see some of the names in my tree and some of the variants of those names!

In fact those variants in your tree may have more to do with where they were living a the time, and what was the ambient language. Anyone living in Elsaß/Alsace would have their family name changing quite frequently between German-style and French-style spellings. If they lived in the Netherlands / Belgium you could get more variants.

I'd be inclined to suspect that "Von Spendingbourg" might be an error - except that it seems to be fairly recent in your tree. Someone dropped the "r" - perhaps they couldn't pronounce the R in their own name, and dropping it made it less embarrassing (like Jonathan Ross).

Christine

[clematised]

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#surname=Von%20Spendinbourg&searchType=close&p=recordResults&givenName=Henry%20Francis

Henry married Mary Willet 1845 St Mary Spital Sq, or Wheeler Chapel spitalfields

Edna

[john_harvey]

http://pilot.familysearch.org/record...enry%20Francis

Henry married Mary Willet 1845 St Mary Spital Sq, or Wheeler Chapel spitalfields

Edna

Thanks Edna, Yep that's part of "my lot" I have that in my tree.

Why are you so sure that there is a definitive spelling?

Until this century, names could be very fluid - and the century isn't completely exempt from that. Computerisation has encouraged standardisation of spelling because "fuzzy logic" is hard for computers. You can look at all those names and deduce that they are (almost certainly) the same, but a computer would find it much harder.

I'll definitely leave my footer in place, and you'll see some of the names in my tree and some of the variants of those names!

In fact those variants in your tree may have more to do with where they were living a the time, and what was the ambient language. Anyone living in Elsaß/Alsace would have their family name changing quite frequently between German-style and French-style spellings. If they lived in the Netherlands / Belgium you could get more variants.

I'd be inclined to suspect that "Von Spendingbourg" might be an error - except that it seems to be fairly recent in your tree. Someone dropped the "r" - perhaps they couldn't pronounce the R in their own name, and dropping it made it less ambarrassing (like Jonathan Ross).

Christine

Thanks Christine,That's a really interesting post with some good information.....Thanks...John

[marymog]

hi John

another version for your list

Louisa Frances Morton Vanspringingbourg , was imprisoned in Kent for 1 month for nicking things
Date of Trial: 16 Mar 1854

mm

[john_harvey]

Thanks Mary......John

[Cloggie]

Hi John,

In German names, "von" means "of" or "from" (the Dutch/Flemish equivalent is "van"). So the second part of the name should refer to a place, although this is not necessarily a city or town - it could be a small hamlet or an estate.

I've had a look at Global Gazetteer to see if I could find any similar place names to try to figure out the correct spelling. To use the site, scroll down to "Alphabetical listing of Places in World" and then click on "S", then on the next page, click on "Sp" (with lower-case "p"), then "Spr" (with lower-case "pr"), and so forth until you get a list of place names.

The closest I've found so far are names like Spangenberg, Spreedorf, Spriegelsbach and Sprittelsberg, all in Germany. So nothing very similar to any of the names you listed, but of course there are lots of letter combinations still to try out. And the name could refer to a place too small to be listed in the Gazetteer, or possibly an old place name that is no longer in use.

On the 1881 census, there is a John F. Spreidenberg, born 1846 in Germany, living in London with his wife Ellen and children Charlotte and John: RG11; Piece: 460; Folio: 132; Page: 35.

And on the 1901 census, a Chas. Spriestersbach, born c1861 in Germany, also living in London with his family: Class: RG13; Piece: 46; Folio: 49; Page: 36.

On the 1871 census there is a Francis Von Spreenenburg, born c1825 in Amsterdam. Class: RG10; Piece: 2140; Folio: 59; Page: 7. Although it says Von Spreenenburg on the image, if he was Dutch, a possible surname could be "van Spreeuwenberg", a name that can be traced back to the province of Brabant.

I'm struggling to find any of your other spelling variations on censuses. Can you provide references so we can have a look at the images?

[marymog]

Cloggie

how would you pronounce van spruijtenburg/berg/bergh/bourgh

it sounds quite likely to me

mm

[Cloggie]

That's a tricky one to explain as the "ui" sound doesn't exist in English. It's a bit like "sprout" but in a Scottish or Northern Irish Accent.
So it would sound a bit like "van Sproutenberg", and could possibly be misinterpreted as "von Spreitenberg" by those unfamiliar with the Dutch vowel sounds (the Dutch word "van" sounds like the English "von" with the "v" sounding softer and more like the English "f" sound).

[john_harvey]

Thanks Sarah, I will have look when I get home.
John

[john_harvey]

RG12 Piece 291 Folio 97 Page 18
From FMP.
PS. Why cant I find this on Ancestry ?
Can you search with Census ref numbers on Ancestry ?
Regards John

[Cloggie]

Yes, to do so on Ancestry, go to the census year in question (in this case 1891), and at the bottom of the advanced search form you can enter the reference numbers.
The reference you've given doesn't produce any results though. :(

[Cloggie]

I think I've found it, with the reference RG12, Piece 292, Folio 97, Page 18.
It's been transcribed as Vonspierdenber, but the image looks like Von Spreidenberg.
Here's the link to the image: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?...c=&pid=9779135
A correction was added to the transcription 2 days ago by someone with the username bearhammer.

[john_harvey]

I think I've found it, with the reference RG12, Piece 292, Folio 97, Page 18.
It's been transcribed as Vonspierdenber, but the image looks like Von Spreidenberg.
Here's the link to the image: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?...c=&pid=9779135
A correction was added to the transcription 2 days ago by someone with the username bearhammer.

Sorry for the typo on the Census ref.
bearhammer is me :o:o:o:o !
A thousand apologies,,,,
I have been looking at so many "whatevers" lately.
(well thats my excuse)....or a senior moment
John

[Cloggie]

No worries!
With all those spelling variations I can imagine it would be easy to forget what's been found where.

[john_harvey]

Hmmmm found this ?

http://www.ortsfamilienbuecher.de/famreport.php?ofb=lesum&lang=en&modus=&ID=I00061&nachname=FRANCIS

[margaretmarch]

Hmmmm found this ?
http://www.ortsfamilienbuecher.de/fa...chname=FRANCIS

That looks like a connection! can you make contact with the person who put the information up.
Margaret

[john_harvey]

That looks like a connection! can you make contact with the person who put the information up.
Margaret

Thanks Margaret, Yep I am going to try that if I can.
Regards......John