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  • Clarke/Smith census help needed

    I posted this on another thread I had started some time ago but in hindsight should have probably have posted a seperate thread. I do not have access to ancestry any more any wondered if anyone can help with the 1841 and 1851 census for an ancestor Hannah Clarke. She got married to a James Smith on 3/3/1845 who was a boatman but unfortunately her fathers name was not listed in full but simply said J Clarke occupation also a Boatman. The marriage certificate said that she was of full age when she married James and it was in Wolverhampton.

    I found Hannah and James on the 1861 census in Tipton I think it says in District of St Pauls at 2 Tipton Wharf. In 1871 they were living in Darlaston, Staffordshire. It gave Hannah's place of birth as Wolverhampton.

    In 1841 she would have presumably be with her parents and in 1851 would have been married 6 years so would then be a Smith. I was hoping the 1841 census might give me Hannah's father and mothers names and perhaps some siblings.

    Any help would as always be greatly appreciated

    Thanks

    Steven

  • #2
    1851
    H0107 2016 382 page 31
    there are a lot of Boatman including a James Clarke born 1794 Staffordshire
    in Alderley Junction Bushbury Staffordshire

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    • #3
      she may not have been with her Parents in 1841 she may be a servant somewhere quite a few were ,so far I cannot find a James Clarke Boatman with a Daughter Hannah.

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      • #4
        Thanks Val - in 1851 Hannah should be with her husband James but him being a boatman means that he could be anywhere so might be a struggle. I would guess that Hannah would be around 18-20 when she got married in 1845 so her birth would be around 1825 and that would put her around 12 - 14 on the 1841 census.

        On the 1861 census James and Hannah have the following children which might help locate the 1851 census

        Mary Ann aged 15
        Eliza aged 12
        James aged 10

        Thanks

        Steven

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        • #5
          Bought the pay as you go credits from Ancestry but still for the life of me cannot find the Smith family in 1851. As I said in 1861 they were living in Tipton and James Smith was listed as age 40, a boatman from Shenstone or Sharnton in Warwickshire. Hannah Smith is listed as also 40 with her place of birth as Wolverhampton Warwickshire. The only children I think thast would be alive in 1851 would be Mary Ann who is listed as 15 in 1861 with a place of birth as Wolverhampton and Eliza who is listed as 12 in 1861 with place of birth as Wolverhampton. There is a James who is listed as 10 in 1861 with a place of birth given as Gailey? Staffordshire but he might not be born when the census was taken but might give a clue as to where they may have been in 1851.

          James' occupation is always listed as a boatman, canal boat steerer etc. I did find a family with the same names in Suffolk but occupation and places of birth were all wrong.

          In 1871 they are all in Darlaston, Stafforshire and in this one James' place of birth looks like Shenstone, Stafforshire and he is age 53, a canal boat steerer and Hannah's place of birth is noted as Tipton Staffordshire - both Eliza and Mary Ann are not there but would be older.

          In 1881 they are aboard a Canal Grain Boat in Coventry, Warwick and James is listed as age 60, a boatman with place of birth as Sharnton, Warwick and Hannah is listed as age 59 with a place of birth as Wolverhampton.

          James and Hannah were married on 3/3/1845 in Wolverhampton, Stafford but I just cannot find them at all. I have tried searching for the children as their names as not as common. Have added in both parents then taken out James as perhaps he was away from home aboard a boat or barge but still nothing.

          Just looking to see if any experts can find them in 1851 before I give up and go crazy!!!!!

          Many thanks

          Steven

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          • #6
            Gailey is OK as a possible birthplace for James. It's a well-known canal location. Have you tried to locate movements for James senior around the canal network? I know (from watching Waterworld on the telly) that there are many people researching boating families and there are several repositories of this sort of information.
            Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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            • #7
              Thanks for that Uncle John I know you are good with the geography stuff. Have tried so many variations of the family to try to narrow the results down but I am now thinking I will just have to put in one name and search through all the matches.

              Re James senior have tried to find apprentice records etc but nothing. Managed to find some for his son Solomon and grandson also Solomon. Looks like he was more of a canal man that boatman/lighterman.

              Just have to sit in front on computer for a few more hours tonight again to try to find them - really annoying but with a name like Smith I can't expect it to be easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

              Regards

              Steven

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              • #8
                Boatman was a semi-skilled job so I doubt there's any apprenticeship records. It's all about feeding the horse, steering straight and huge amounts of heavy manual labour.
                Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                • #9
                  Hi Uncle John a member of the forum was previously able to give me dates and also when my great grandfather and great great grandfather were bound to a master then also when they finished their apprenticeships as watermen/lightermen. It looks then as if a bargeman was not as fully skilled as a waterman or lighterman.

                  Is is possible to be missed from the 1851 census? For example if the family was on a barge could they be between stops and therefore get missed? I have tried so hard to find them. The other option is that they may be in a completely different county. I have tried to search around the Staffordshire area as that is where they were main based ie in 1845 in Wolverhampton, when James junior was born they were in Gailey. Uncle John, you are always are very good with the geography stuff and wondered if you had any more ideas where they might be eg where the canal went to from the Staffordshire area. James' future son Solomon (my great great grandfather) was born in Weedon in 1866 and you were previously able to tell me that Weedon was on the canal route.

                  Thanks

                  Steven

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                  • #10
                    Thames Waterman was certainly a skilled (and restricted) occupation. Operating on the tideway required much more skills than steering a narrowboat along a canal. Try this for size as a map of the canal system. You should be able to zoom in and find your way round. If you've got lots of boater ancestors, how about seeing if there are any maps going cheap on Ebay?
                    A must for all boat owners and users, these printer-friendly guides contain detailed maps and boating information for all our waterways in England and Wales.
                    Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                    • #11
                      Thanks Uncle John will check it out. Looks like my ancestors moved south to work on the Thames and have found around 3/4 Watermen/Lightermen so far.

                      Regards

                      Steven

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                      • #12
                        I now think I am going crazy and really sorry to ask for help again. Would it be normal practice for a mother to be away from her children in 1851 census and be working as a domestic servant? I have searched all week for James, Hannah, Eliza and Mary Ann Smith. I have tried leaving father out in case he was away from home and then James with the children and the two children together and on their own but cannot find them.

                        Just don't know where to go next and hate getting beat but simply cannot find them.

                        Really sorry to be a pest but would anyone have any suggestions?

                        James was age 40 in 1861, Hannah was age 40, Mary Ann was age 15 and Eliza was age 12 and James age 10. The mother and two girls have a place of birth of Wolverhampton, James junior place of birth is Gailey and James senior is Warwickshire and is a boatman in all future censuses.

                        I promise this is the last time I will ask for help with this one

                        Steven

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                        • #13
                          hi Steve been having another look but still nothing?? I do have a married woman working as a servant so it is possible, maybe the children were with her parents while she worked????
                          I will keep trying .

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                          • #14
                            Thanks Val the only clue I can give to Hannah's parents is his father was listed as J Clarke (Boatman) on their marriage certificate in 1845 in Wolverhampton. It looks like family was around the Wolverhampton area.

                            Regards

                            Steven

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                            • #15
                              Hi Val it looks like you were right with the 1841 census - can't be 100% but as good as. Thank you very much. One down one to go and its that tricky 1851 census when they are married with children that is still posing the huge problem.

                              Steven

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                              • #16
                                maybe they were missed off the census ???? suppose its possible ?? will have another go later.

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                                • #17
                                  Thanks Val I will be trying yet again as well!!!!!

                                  Steven

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