islington middlesex London

[james84]

Is there anyone that can help me find some more details on some family. Im looking for marriage details of a Henry Mortyn and Sarah (last name not know) they were both born around 1803. Persumably in the middlesex islington area, Most of the details I have found point towards the St Mary's parish. It would be great if I could get a date and even better if I could get parents names. Henrys occupation has been transcribed as a jewlers clerk and jelwer in the 1841 and 1851 census. Also the last name has come up different a few times as well, like thats uncommon from what i read. Mortyn,Mortyer,Martyn.


any info or help would be a big help.

james

[Elaine ..Spain]

James - I think this request would be better on the Research Qs and As forum to start with, until you have more information that could be used in a specific record office lookup.

On your other thread - Going beyond 1830 in England - we found the family you are asking about in the 1841 census.
There were two children listed, Charles age 13 and Thomas age 3.

There is a baptism on the IGI which could be Thomas:

THOMAS WILLIAM MORTYN
Birth: 03 JUL 1838
Christening: 15 AUG 1838 Duncan Street Irvingite, Islington,
Parents: Henry Mortyn & Sarah.

You should be able to order the birth certificate for Thomas which will show his mother's maiden name, which would help in locating the correct marriage.

[Elaine ..Spain]

Can't seem to see an entry in freeBMD for him at the moment.

[maggie_4_7]

The Irvingite Church in Duncan Rd, Islington was a Catholic Apostolic Church and is a different place entirely from St Marys Islington.

[james84]

Thanks again. So how do I go about getting that birth certificate ? There seems to be quite a number of place on the net that could help, but which one? In Australia theres only one goverment dept for each state that deals with BDM's. Which has made it quite straigh forward for me up to now. Most of the data bases have enough detail on them so you could order a person birth, mariage and death cert's at once. Also you could usually get their parents BDM certs aswell. Looking on ancestory.com.au is being helpful but there is only so much info on there and then you throw in the surename variants and that makes it even more complicated.
But anyway if you can let me know how to get thomas's birth cert that will help on the way.

thanks again

[maggie_4_7]

Its possible he wasn't registered though even though registration started in Sep 1837 it wasn't always adhered to by people and for a long time baptism still remained the only record. Elaine can't seem to find a reg that fits and neither can I.

If that baptism that Elaine found is yours then Henry and Sarah may have followed the Irvingites it was a Catholic Apostolic Church set up by the Reverend Edward Irving who was expelled from the National Church in Scotland. Otherwise I don't know why they picked that particular church I think they built 12 in London. Having said all that that may be another reason he's not actually registered. Of course the record may have not reached the GRO or he is badly mistransribed.

I'm not sure what the next step for you is on this one to be honest the family may have originated in Scotland but then again may not perhaps just disaffected Catholics!!! I'm not sure what Catholic Apostolic Churches are. Maybe someone will be on the thread later who might have some ideas where to go next.

Edit to say:

Sorry I should have said if you order any BMDs for England and Wales always use the official GRO site which is here:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

for Scotland they have they're own wonderful site and the link is:

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

[james84]

Thanks maggie. So is it fair to say that 1803 is about as far as im going to be able to go with that family name ?

[maggie_4_7]

No not nesscarily, I haven't read through your other thread. I'm going to read it.

Don't be disheartened all that above is supposition at the moment its just another line of thought.

But always use those links up there for England and Wales and Scotland for any BMDs.

[james84]

Sorry Maggie my browser hadn't update properly and missed one of your other threads. What do you mean by disaffected Catholics ? I'm absolutly no expert on churches or religon but all the BDM certificates if have are either at a church of england or a Presbyterian church. I'm not sure if that ake any sense but there is no mention anywhere in any record i have of a catholic church.

james

[maggie_4_7]

Well if that baptism is Thomas I don't know why they used that particular church because its a Catholic Apolostic Church - I'm not sure what that type of church is.

So mostly Presbytarian okay that makes a bit more sense even more reason to wonder why they used the Irvingite church I think perhaps it may have been a one off for them if that Thomas is yours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Apostolic_Church

[james84]

Im pretty sure we found the birth/baptism of charles in 1828 in LMA under charles Martyn. I'm confident that that is the right person. Im more interested in his parents Henry and Sarah, More so the father as thats the name ive been following. Going by the census's his birth year is abt 1803. I just can't find his Birth cert or a mariage cert. I have a death transcription in 1853 but only has basic info on it. Pretty much all the documents I have are from St Mary, Islington, middelsex.
Are just had a quick look through my papers and there is only 2 for the Presbytarian church and the rest being church of England.
Like I said earlyer it wasn't to hard to get back to 1850 as most of it was here in Australia and the certificates were great, but now im just lost and have no idea where to look as im getting the same person with 3 different ways of spelling the last name. So when I search I don't know which one to use.

[maggie_4_7]

Okay I've just looked at that baptism and the 1841 census that is on the other thread things are bit more clearer now.

Both Henry and Sarah on the 1841 have put Y for born in County. Charles baptism is St James Clerkenwell which is the Borough of Islington but a bit further away from St Marys and the Irvingite church in Duncan Rd. Islington is a big place.

I don't suppose anyone found an 1851 census with Henry and Sarah on! and I assume you haven't found Henry and Sarah's marriage.

[naomiatt]

Hi - this may be of interest http://www.islington.gov.uk/leisure/..._available.asp

[james84]

I haven't been able to find much on either of them other then henrys death and the few census records. Im only searching on ancestory.com.au as Im not sure where else to look.

[james84]

Thanks for the link Naoni, Again I'm lost on what question I need to ask when I email them. Open for suggestions !

[maggie_4_7]

I haven't been able to find much on either of them other then henrys death and the few census records. Im only searching on ancestory.com.au as Im not sure where else to look.

So you've got Henry's death who is Sarah's husband and Charles' and Thomas' father?

What is it and was it before 1851 census?

What census do you have? Could you list the refs please.

[Elaine ..Spain]

This could be the marriage for Henry and Sarah:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Henry Morlyn / Sarah Susan Greaves
Marriage - 15 May 1825, St Mary, Islington

It has been transcribed as MORLYN on Ancestry but if you look at the image you will see that it is actually MORTYN. The birth certificate of the son would give MMN to confirm that this is the right one - just a shame we can't find it!

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&f8=henry&f10=&sx=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&rg_f51__date=1826&rs_f51__date=2&f37=&f47=&f49=&f23=&f24=&f18=sarah&f19=&f28=&f29=&gskw=&prox=1&db=lmamarriages&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=418&h=4209175&recoff=1+20&fsk=&bsk=CIAABlcASlnB&pgoff=

[Elaine ..Spain]

What census do you have? Could you list the refs please.

Maggie, I've got them open at the moment so I'll give you what I've got.

1841

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&gsfn=thomas&gsln=&sx=&f1=Middlesex&f2=&f3=&f18=&rg_81004011__date=1838&rs_81004011__date=2&_82004011=&_82004013=&f7=&f20=&f8=&f9=&gskw=clerkenwell&prox=1&db=uki1841&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=209&h=6998305&recoff=1&fsk=CIAAIxIAhrHr&bsk=&pgoff=

HO107; Piece 659; Book: 10; Civil Parish: St James Clerkenwell; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 13; Folio: 16; Page: 24;

1851

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=MDXHO107_1517_1517-0464&fn=Sarah+T&ln=Martyn&st=r&ssrc=&pid=16517872

HO107; Piece: 1517; Folio: 278; Page: 15

[maggie_4_7]

Bother Henry and Sarah don't give much away about where they were born do they!!!

Plus no more children!!!

On Charles baptism they give Vineyard Walk as their address - that's just off Farringdon Road and behind St James in Clerkenwell and in the heart of the Jewellery and Goldsmith trade, Hatton Gdn being just up the road.

Quite a way from the heart of Islington where you found that Thomas baptism.

So perhaps that's where they come from the Clerkenwell area ...

I do think there is a slight possibility a few generations or even only one back that the family originate from Scotland! Its only a feeling though on my part because of the name, presbytarian and the Irvingnite church!

[Elaine ..Spain]

Sarah is on the 1871 census,

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1871&indiv=try&h=12037503

RG10; Piece: 448; Folio: 22; Page: 3

- says born 1805, Clerkenwell.
She is recorded as Sarah S Martyn - note the marriage I found was for a Sarah Susan.