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  • American records

    Hello,
    Anyone come up against the American "Brick Wall?

    Last year, having let this particular person lie dormant for a long long while, I put him at the top of my
    "must finds". Having read through all old correspondence I found there was a rumour he may have gone to the USA. With so much online now, initially I was extremely successful. Found him in the shipping records arriving in New York. Then with the help of a very generous person in the U.S a lot of information was ferreted out and I mean a lot, considering I started with nothing. Everything was fine until after the 1930 Fed.Census then the "brick wall" went up. Anyone researching in US will know how
    difficult it is, virtually impossible, to get in to Vital Records.

    Is there anyone who has done research in the US and encountered problems.?

    dreen22

  • #2
    Hi - yes, not always easy for the US - also depends where the person lived etc.
    Are you able to provide the persons name and more info?

    Comment


    • #3
      USA Research

      Good Morning.
      Yes , of course. His name was Bertram O Dietrich born in UK1873, arrived in New York July 1911. In 1913
      he married Bertha Erber in Manhattan. They had two sons, Nevile O 1913 (died Texas 1982) Possible living person.(no further trace after 1930) There is a Border Crossing for Bertram snr into Canada in 1934 and that's it. I have no idea what happened to this family after that.

      Thank-u for your interest.

      dreen22
      Last edited by Velma Dinkley; 06-04-10, 09:18. Reason: Naming of possible living persons under 100 years old

      Comment


      • #4
        Manhattan probably comes under New York and their early BMD up to 1890 are not so easy to get hold of. However, you can view all US census from 1860 onwards with the exception of 1890 census which I understand was damaged in some way, so much of it is missing. All census from 1860 up to 1930 are accessible to the public, courtesy of Ancestry Worldwide. You can also search their social security indexes although for this person would needed to have become naturalised American and with a common name you would need to know the area, but this is where census use would help. Dietrich will be quite a common name in the USA. I have found many Irish who emigrated to Albany New York State by means of the census and then social security index for the later ones.

        I have had great trouble getting BMD for mine who are born, married or died around 1860 to 1910 in the Albany area. I draw blanks everywhere I look and even American cousins are finding difficulties. I visited Albany in 2006 and even though the library was the New York State Library, it was a baptism of fire looking for wills or anything family history. Their directories are good as everyone seems to be in those but I do not know if Ancestry has these online? I have found many that way. America is unbelievably backward in their keeping of earlier records and tight with their later records that Family Historians can use. I came back to the UK from the States realising just how spoilt we British are for records! And some of us grumble about the cost etc! I defy anybody to research a tree properly in the States unless they have inherited documents!

        One of your other problems may be an illegal entry of which I have a couple of these and they have just disappeared. Illegal entry from Canada to USA was so common as it was easy to get over the border but then many just changed their names, never to be heard of again! Yes, I do understand about the American brick wall, it is far higher, bigger and thicker than a British brick wall, though the Irish brickwall can also be pretty high as well!!!

        Janet
        Last edited by Janet; 04-04-10, 12:18.

        Comment


        • #5
          Did you find an obituary for Neville? That might provide a clue. Also, have you tried looking for Bert, Bertie, Albert etc
          Did Bertha perhaps pass away in the US and then B Snr went to Canada?

          Comment


          • #6
            American research

            Good Morning Janet.
            Thank-you for your reply.

            I have encountered most of the problems you outline. I didn't know about the 1890 census, although, as far as I am aware my Dietrich families only started with entry to the US in 1894 by Bertram's sister, another who I cannot track after 1920 definitely, with just
            a possible sighting on a 1930 Fed.Census. She was a Davis by marriage!! which name is worse than Dietrich. I've not been able to find a Naturilisation record for either of them.
            Would Bertram's sister have been automatically naturalised by marriage to an american?

            It's such a pity the records are so restricted making research beyond 1930 virtually impossible. Ancestry has been a great boon in providing details of Border Crossings for Bertram also shipping manifests as he returned from various trips. His Manhattan marriage I located on another website for german marriages in the US so that was
            a great piece of luck, but, of course, the actual certificate would be nice, to see who else
            was mentioned on it.

            I was fortunate with his spouse too because the marriage entry listed the spouse separately. and with her name at my disposal I was able to find connections in the US to her family and roots.

            At one time I had anticipated a holiday in the US with a view to including some research,
            but with your comments re: Albany this would appear to be a waste of time. Online, the "powers that be" will search Vital Records, I believe, but at a cost which I think is awful
            when we have such easy access here in the UK to such a lot of records. BDM's are such a necessary part of research and just an index of names and dates would be so helpful'.

            A similar problem exists in Australia when attempting to track anyone after 1952 which I have tried and many other avenues I've tried in that country are also "dead ends".

            Germany is another place which is even worse, in fact a non-starter because records are
            scattered far and wide for various reasons. Yes records might be accessible and independent researchers are more than willing to assist, but you'd need a Bank loan to cover their charges.

            So. The UK comes out top with our vast amount of easily accessible records and if we do
            it why, why do these other countries have to be so secretive and unhelpful.

            Your mention of people changing their names is alarming, suddenly the brick wall has become higher.

            Maybe we should start a petition!!.

            best wishes
            Doreen






            Originally posted by Janet View Post
            Manhattan probably comes under New York and their early BMD up to 1890 are not so easy to get hold of. However, you can view all US census from 1860 onwards with the exception of 1890 census which I understand was damaged in some way, so much of it is missing. All census from 1860 up to 1930 are accessible to the public, courtesy of Ancestry Worldwide. You can also search their social security indexes although for this person would needed to have become naturalised American and with a common name you would need to know the area, but this is where census use would help. Dietrich will be quite a common name in the USA. I have found many Irish who emigrated to Albany New York State by means of the census and then social security index for the later ones.

            I have had great trouble getting BMD for mine who are born, married or died around 1860 to 1910 in the Albany area. I draw blanks everywhere I look and even American cousins are finding difficulties. I visited Albany in 2006 and even though the library was the New York State Library, it was a baptism of fire looking for wills or anything family history. Their directories are good as everyone seems to be in those but I do not know if Ancestry has these online? I have found many that way. America is unbelievably backward in their keeping of earlier records and tight with their later records that Family Historians can use. I came back to the UK from the States realising just how spoilt we British are for records! And some of us grumble about the cost etc! I defy anybody to research a tree properly in the States unless they have inherited documents!

            One of your other problems may be an illegal entry of which I have a couple of these and they have just disappeared. Illegal entry from Canada to USA was so common as it was easy to get over the border but then many just changed their names, never to be heard of again! Yes, I do understand about the American brick wall, it is far higher, bigger and thicker than a British brick wall, though the Irish brickwall can also be pretty high as well!!!

            Janet

            Comment


            • #7
              Doreen,

              I do not know whether Albany New York State Library has changed since 2006, only 4 years ago! When I asked about wills, as I thought I might find a clue to mine within this area, there was a blank look as though nobody had ever asked that question before. Then they suggested we tried the Court House so we visited that place, also in Albany, to be told that all wills were down in the basement. She showed me downstairs to a basement room about 30 or so feet wide, stacked high with huge volumes, floor to ceiling. There was some rough order of alphabet and a ladder, as the room was about 15 feet high. She left us there to search and we spent several hours climbing up and down ladders. I did find two important Letters of Administration which family members living in the area had not got, so the time was not wasted, but I remembered my comfortable visits to the Probate Office in London where I found wills so effortlessly. After my American visit I swore then that I would never ever complain about British records again! They were very helpful in the library, but just do not expect too much. This was hard work in Albany and we are that bit older now and I could not do it again. The annoying part was that because one of the people died in a work accident there was some sort of court action which they agreed they had somewhere in the library but did not know where it was! I have toyed with the idea of writing to see if they have further knowledge now 4 years later.

              There is just one other thought if you have access to Colindale Newspaper Library in London they do have the New York Times there and following on what Naomiatt has said above about obituaries then it may be worth looking there. Surprisingly enough many Americans had obituaries written even if they did not have much money, but you would have to know that you had got the correct people. My cousins had found obituaries written for their people in Albany and they were just ordinary people working in local factories. I spent some time looking at Directories and the Wills, no BMD anywhere.

              Yes, I was looking for an Ekman in Canada, found him in the Canadian Army in the First W War, got his documents, but about 1920 he slipped over the border to the US. I have searched in the Social Security Index but there were too many Frank Ekman to choose from, as I have no idea where he went and it's a big country! We have recently been in touch with a relative who informed us that Frank slipped over the border to the US illegally, and changed his name. Nobody knows what name change he had, so that is probably going to be an unsolvable brick wall for me.

              I am sorry I cannot offer you more except my commiserations and hope that someone out there may be able to help us!

              Janet

              A PS in answer to your question about whether or not automatic naturalisation takes place on marriage to an American. I do not think this is so as I understand US naturalisation is a commitment on all sides. All my own rellies who are naturalised have each had to make the declaration and I have certs to this effect. I also have a sister in Canada who has never become naturalised and she is married to a Canadian.
              Last edited by Janet; 05-04-10, 13:01.

              Comment


              • #8
                Doreen - I had a gt gt Uncle in New York (Brooklyn) and have been able to get both his death cert and marriage certificate from the City of New York Department of Records and Information services (link attached). Both time the certificates arrived within 10 days. I found the original information on the below website which was very useful - it does marriages as well as deaths. Hope this helps.





                I too am having difficulty with another relation in California - I have to swear an affidavit just to get an informational death cert!
                Bo

                At present: Marshall, Smith, Harding, Whitford, Lane (in and around Winchcomb).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Records

                  Originally posted by Bo the Bodger View Post
                  Doreen - I had a gt gt Uncle in New York (Brooklyn) and have been able to get both his death cert and marriage certificate from the City of New York Department of Records and Information services (link attached). Both time the certificates arrived within 10 days. I found the original information on the below website which was very useful - it does marriages as well as deaths. Hope this helps.





                  I too am having difficulty with another relation in California - I have to swear an affidavit just to get an informational death cert!
                  Dear Bo

                  Thank-u so much for that information. I'm pleased with your success (there's hope yet). I'll try those
                  links straight away and let you know how I go. I think the only problem I may have is although a blood
                  relation am not direct descent, more sideways!!. Still, not to be deterred I shall investigate. Thank-u.

                  Doreen

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hello again Bo.
                    The Italian Website I have seen before and found Bertram's marriage date there but I didn't apply for a certificate at at that time, not sure if the facility was mentioned. Anyway, with the details of his marriage
                    I went to the New York Geneaology Records, but, and here you will think I'm a bit dim, but exactly what is the "Letter of Exemplification" which it would seem is needed to proceed? grrr.
                    Doreen

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Janet
                      Your search experience sounds like a horror story, unbelievable in the USA, but at least you found something.

                      I'll try the Colindale Newspaper for obits, problem will be not knowing when he died, but blanket searching has never stopped me in the past. It brings back memories of the many hours (in the old days!!) when I
                      would spend hours at Myddleton Street or Chancery Lane trawling the census in a specific area hoping to find that elusive person or family, what joy when you did get a hit, as you yelled with joy everyone around had a mild heart attack - happy days.
                      I expect a lot of people out there may have had this experience before the www. and Ancestry in particular.

                      Doreen

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dreen22 View Post
                        A similar problem exists in Australia when attempting to track anyone after 1952 which I have tried and many other avenues I've tried in that country are also "dead ends".
                        Hi Doreen,

                        I can't help with the US stuff, but if you'd like to start a separate thread about your Australian problems, somebody may be able to help. There are certainly some records available after 1952, but it depends very much on which State you're interested in (NSW deaths are now online up to 1979, for example, and the Ryerson index has more recent deaths).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hello Bo.
                          The Marriage Certificate I want is for a gt.gt.Uncle too, so maybe I don't need that "Letter of Exemplification".

                          I wasn't able to find any deaths because they lived in Buffalo before their disappearance.

                          D

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello Bo,
                            We corresponded a few weeks back re: certificates.
                            I now have a fairly concrete date for the death of my relly, but again checking the Vital Records for New York, I'm a little perplexed by the
                            proof they require for identification. Do they really require from a different country copies of household bills, driving licence etc. You have obtained certificates, what proof did you supply. Thanks.
                            dreen22

                            Comment

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