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'Enery the Eighth says "Buy the Certificates"

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  • 'Enery the Eighth says "Buy the Certificates"

    I've just been researching a cousin's maternal line in Scotland. Comparing what I've found out, by approaching the family logically, to what I've seen on several Ancestry trees provides an Awful Warning of the risks of jumping to conclusions.

    In this instance the main ancestor married three times. The first and third wives were named Margaret and the second wife Agnes was only around for the 1851 and 1861 censuses. So anyone taking the easy route would assume that Margaret was the mother of all 12 children born up to 1879! The first warning sign was that she was supposedly only 12 when her first son was born. And when I got back to 1861 Margaret had become Agnes.

    In the end I found all three marriages, despite a couple of indexing errors on ScotlandsPeople, and located everyone in just about all the censuses. But my tree bears only a passing resemblance to the several different interpretations among the Ancestry trees.
    Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

  • #2
    I agree 100%, certificates are SO important, and only when you do have a Scottish side for example, and you are financially able to buy them all, do you realise how much. This is one of the reasons I have a major bee in my bonnett about the certs rising in price here for England and Wales. Already you often find people claiming to have them and then when you ask for info on them, they cannot or come out with excuses, that smells suspicously as if they don't have them and never had them in first place. (Not naming any names...but I'm sure it is a common experience for those who help others on boards like this). I realise there will always be sloppy researchers unwilling to pay no matter how much the price of certs is, but I'm equally sure the price of certs in England and Wales doesn't help matters, and when a digital system like Scotlands is not beyond the realm of possibilities (and we are half way there anyway with alot of the neccesary scanning already done) it is sad it is taking so long to happen, and is far from a certainty it ever will. Meanwhile the innacurate, bizarre and just plain weird trees at Ancestry grow and grow and grow!
    Last edited by Richard; 31-03-10, 13:37.

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    • #3
      Certs can be very useful, but its also important to realise that just because something is written on a cert, doesn't mean its true! Ideally you need certs, censuses and any other info you can get to help confirm your hunches.
      ~ with love from Little Nell~
      Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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      • #4
        Uncle John

        I have a similar scenario in my tree, but pre registration, which made things very difficult!

        In my case, wives number one and three had exactly the same first name AND surname...I thought I had gone mad when I found marriages 30 years apart! I only solved the conundrum by looking at the monumental inscriptions which fortunately survived for this man and his family.

        On the Scottish side....census and certs were no use to me whatsoever in solving the puzzle of my vanishing 3 x GGF - he vanished aged about 4, but I know he must have lived cos I wouldn't be here otherwise!

        That turned out to be a brief marriage between census, produced two children then the wife died and on the next census my 4 x GGF is "still" single and living with his parents. His children were living with their maternal grandmother who had remarried anyway, and was describing these children as boarders. As I didn't know of their existence, it took some sleuthing to work it all out.

        I agree with Nell - certs are very important, but so is every other shred of documented evidence.

        OC

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        • #5
          I understand that at least three checking points are needed to substantiate proof, so certificates are important but so are other points of reference in building a succesful tree. I would never have found my grandmother's first marriage in London without having the marriage of a sibling, as said sibling and her husband are witnesses at my grandmother's first marriage in 1896. All parties concernerd have common names and living anywhere in London! By 1901 she is living as wife of someone else and her marriage to that person was not found until 1923, 200 miles away. Interestingly enough the sibling's husband died about 1902 and she remarried and was not to be found on 1911 census until further checking, courtesy of LMA records on ancestry so sibling certs can help enormously with finding other members of the family as well as extra checking points.


          PS Also a good idea to search records that cannot be found by middle names as well as first names, as above marriage would not have been found looking for Anna, her first name. It was found looking for Nancy, her second name, but that was another checking point. I did happen to know she called herself Nancy as well as Anna, but other family members looking for a re-marriage may not know that detail! She also remarried using her first marriage name, not her maiden name, so if you did not know her first marriage you would never find her. This building of an accurate tree can get very complicated and one certificate may not be anywhere near enough!!

          Janet
          Last edited by Janet; 31-03-10, 20:56.

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          • #6
            I must add though, I was astonished at the speed of my Scottish research, all done and dusted in five weeks at the most (in the main).

            Perversely, I felt a bit cheated...or as if I had cheated in some way, because it all came together so quickly and easily (despite Ancestry's best efforts to flummox me with their weird and wonderful Scottish census transcriptions)

            OC

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            • #7
              OC

              I wish I could say the same about my Scottish lot! With a name like Gibson it has been a long haul but not doing too badly. Too many of mine have just disappeared, like the 1841 Census which shows Great Great Grandmother and Great Grandmother nicely esconced in Tulliallan with family, but no husband who was there in 1836. He was a mariner but I cannot kill him off, and neither can I find his birth, as three Roberts fit the bill nicely. The annoying thing is that if I could either kill him off or find his birth I would be back centuries as others have done so much work on this family but none of us have been able to get my Robert any further forward or backward. However, my grandfather's death certificate was so wonderful as it started me off on my Scottish trek leading me from Glasgow to Culross and even a previous marriage of great grandmother as it gave me not only her maiden name but also the name of her former husband as well as the date of G father's birth, all from one cert, brilliant.

              Janet

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              • #8
                If we are ranting anyway ;)

                Some of the Ancestry-****! Oh my God! I sometimes have the impression that they cannot read to save their life. Admittedly, some writing is difficult to read, but then again, I do not do transcriptions and I will not attempt them. How are we able to find stuff if it is a quiz how it will be spelt this time? Fortunately, I research a very uncommon name, but sometimes it is really not fun. There also are mistaes on freeBMD, but at least you can submit corrections, and it is free, so we can't really complain. And they do pay attention when you signal one.

                As for the certs: I find it disgusting. It is WAY too expensive. Not only with UK-ciizens in mind, but also with foreigners in mind. How are they supposed to order certs with 1,5 euro to the pound??? You can better bend over backwards and go a few miles to the Mormons than buying them.

                Trying to make money out of this as Ancestry does I find equally disgusting. I have been able to find all up till now without paying for it. Apart from a trip to the NA and paying for copies of the censuses at 20 pence a piece which I find justified. That is only because I have a very very uncommon name though. Someone who has the misfoftune to be called Smith will not be able to do so...

                Does anyone know if one can take a picture of the original entry in the register? I am namely not interested in the info on the cert (also but not as a main), but rather in the writing and signatures of the people involved (this one could write, this one couldn't). Thus, I would like to photograph the entry. Also making sure that they do not make any mistakes in spelling the name (as some have done in the past I know of).

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                • #9
                  "Also making sure that they do not make any mistakes in spelling the name (as some have done in the past I know of)."
                  Who is making spelling mistakes, Kikii ? The person recording the facts (eg registry clerk, parish clerk, minister) or the person signing their own name - my ancestors all spelled their name different ways, but none of them was a "mistake" as such.

                  As to jumiping to conclusions - I think I am guilty of hoping I had jumped to the right conclusion using the IGI - Christopher b 1790 was the son of George who was the son of Christopher, but now I find a burial entry for "Christopher the son of George" buried in 1793 !!

                  So scrub out all those pencil entries and start again - Christopher aged 50 in the 1841 census, died in 1842 - was he baptised in 1786 the son of Sarah, or in 1783, the son of John and Ellen, or in 1783 the son of John and Catherine (or is this a duplicate of John and Ellen ?) (Now how did I find that again - I need a sub to the Genealogist website, to see details, but I found the basic record somewhere !) (ooh found it again, bmdregisers.org)

                  Di
                  Last edited by dicole; 01-04-10, 05:58.
                  Diane
                  Sydney Australia
                  Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

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                  • #10
                    I agree with "Enery" about buying certs, i have 2 babies on the 1851 census William Street 8 months and John Calladine 2 months, 2 different surnames and only 6 months apart. Parents and babies living with grandma, so why does every other tree insist they both belong to Williams parents/mother Hannah.

                    I sent for john`s cert a couple of years ago and he is the illegitimate son of Hannah`s sister Sarah, but do they want to know No.
                    Last edited by Ozzie Gert; 01-04-10, 05:51.
                    Sylvia

                    Derbyshire :- Gough, Tomlinson, Fletcher, Shipley, Spencer, Calladine, Rogers, Kerry, Robotham
                    Leicestershire:- Gough, Cooper, Underwood, Hearn, Inglehearn
                    Staffordshire:- Robotham, Hickinbotham, Hill, Holmes

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kiki1982 View Post
                      Some of the Ancestry-****! Oh my God! I sometimes have the impression that they cannot read to save their life. Admittedly, some writing is difficult to read, but then again, I do not do transcriptions and I will not attempt them. How are we able to find stuff if it is a quiz how it will be spelt this time? Fortunately, I research a very uncommon name, but sometimes it is really not fun. There also are mistaes on freeBMD, but at least you can submit corrections, and it is free, so we can't really complain. And they do pay attention when you signal one.
                      You can submit corrections to Ancestry as well, and they are a lot quicker about adding them to the search facility than FreeBMD are. Ancestry's certainly not the only site subject to transcription errors. It happens everywhere. I have found plenty of mistakes on the Digitale Stamboom sites as well. Bearing in mind that millions and millions of names and other words have been transcribed for Ancestry and other websites, there are bound to be mistakes, especially considering much of the transcription is done overseas by people who are unfamiliar with local names.

                      Originally posted by kiki1982 View Post
                      As for the certs: I find it disgusting. It is WAY too expensive. Not only with UK-ciizens in mind, but also with foreigners in mind. How are they supposed to order certs with 1,5 euro to the pound???
                      The pound hasn't been that high for quite some time now. You might be pleasantly surprised to find that the current exchange rate is 1.13 euro to the pound. :smilee:

                      Originally posted by kiki1982 View Post
                      You can better bend over backwards and go a few miles to the Mormons than buying them.

                      Trying to make money out of this as Ancestry does I find equally disgusting. I have been able to find all up till now without paying for it. Apart from a trip to the NA and paying for copies of the censuses at 20 pence a piece which I find justified.
                      Travelling to the LDS centres also costs time and money. I am very happy to have so much information available at my fingertips. It would cost me a fortune to travel to all the different record offices to find the information I need.

                      Why shouldn't Ancestry make money out of this? Ancestry is a business, not a charity. Yes, the cost of certificates, subscriptions, etc., make genealogy an expensive hobby. But that's precisely what it is - a hobby. I research my family tree by choice, because I enjoy it, not because anybody is forcing me to do so and spend money on it. Most hobbies cost money - just think of all the money artists and musicians have to spend on lessons, supplies, instruments and other equipment.

                      It's great that you have been able to get so far with your tree without spending money on things like certificates, but you could well be missing out on some important and interesting information. Birth certificates often provide more detail than baptism entries, and death certificates certainly provide more detail than burial entries. Addresses and informants on certificates can provide vital clues. Unlike Dutch death entries, English death certificates also include the cause of death, which can be very interesting. Some of the death certificates I've purchased mentioned that an inquest was held. This enabled me to look up the inquest reports in local newspapers to find out more information.

                      Originally posted by kiki1982 View Post
                      Does anyone know if one can take a picture of the original entry in the register? I am namely not interested in the info on the cert (also but not as a main), but rather in the writing and signatures of the people involved (this one could write, this one couldn't). Thus, I would like to photograph the entry. Also making sure that they do not make any mistakes in spelling the name (as some have done in the past I know of).
                      I'm not sure what you mean by mistakes. In the past, spellings were not as standardised as they are nowadays. For example, I have a surname spelled as Tyrrell, Tyrrel, Turrell, Turell, and numerous other variations on that theme. Another name with lots of variations is Coop, Coope, Coupe - it's all the same family, just spelled differently in different records. The same is found in the Dutch registers, for example: Walter, Waltherus, Wouter, Wouterus - all the person, just spelled differently by whoever wrote them down at the time.

                      As for taking pictures of registers, I'm not sure, but Guy has written a number of posts on the subject, including some in this thread: http://www.familytreeforum.com/showt...om-GRO-to-rise.
                      Sarah

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                      • #12
                        You can't take photos of registers but you can take notes of whatever you want. Guy has said this.
                        Kit

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                        • #13
                          PS: What does Enery actually have to do with this thread?
                          Kit

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                          • #14
                            In a perverse way, I am very glad that they put the price up, as it spurred me on to get all the outstanding death certificates for my direct line (with grandparents who were first cousins that isn't as many as most!!). I have found two complete families from the names and addresses of informants and confirmed that I had been following the right family through the censuses in another case although I was fairly sure already.

                            The problem with name changing is an interesting one, I have collected 27 different spellings of Lewcock, with one line adopting and keeping Lucock through to today - and the other keeping the Lewcock spelling, where their father was baptised as Leeucock in the first place. Yet in the censuses, their names are spelled all which ways depending on what the numerator wrote down - and that is without trying to transcribe them.
                            Caroline
                            Caroline's Family History Pages
                            Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

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                            • #15
                              "Why shouldn't Ancestry make money out of this? Ancestry is a business, not a charity. Yes, the cost of certificates, subscriptions, etc., make genealogy an expensive hobby. But that's precisely what it is - a hobby. I research my family tree by choice, because I enjoy it, not because anybody is forcing me to do so and spend money on it. Most hobbies cost money - just think of all the money artists and musicians have to spend on lessons, supplies, instruments and other equipment."


                              I don't think it is whether you should pay money or not that is in question, it is whether the price is fair. Ancestry, and other companies, charging 25 pounds+ to people, who are often unaware they can buy the same certs for 7.00 (until next week!) from GRO, is in my mind a rip off and dubious business practice. I also think the certificates are unnecessarily overpriced in England and Wales, which does not benefit the GRO, who are currently making millions in losses, or the genealogy community in general, who conduct their hobby in a general arena where research cannot be thorough for the vast majority through financial constraint.

                              Incidently, I am a musician, and have been for twenty years, and I am fairly certain genealogy, though I enjoy it enormously, has already cost me more in five years than that hobby ever has!
                              Last edited by Richard; 01-04-10, 11:17. Reason: Spelling Correction

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                              • #16
                                @Cloggie:

                                The main problem on Ancstry is that they clearly mass-mistranscribe. There are far fewer mistakes on FreeBMD than I have met with on Ancestry.

                                I know the pound isn't that high now. We are buying a house with collateral that is in pounds. If we had known, we woudn't have gone for the house and we would have waited until the pound was 1.5 again. But, still, the problem remains in the future. Certs are ridiculously expensive, even no, but more so later when the pound goes higher.

                                Ancestry makes money out of a service that should be free and that should be funded by the government. Certainly in a country like Britian where nearly everyone is obsessed with genealogy anyway, it should be free. In Belgium, one needs to go to the archive oneself, but that in itself is free. If one is required to pay a small fee (2 euro max, I think you should even be able to get them in some places for free), then stil it is acceptable. 15 euro... There would be an outcry. For a cert In a country where one cannot go to the archives oneself due to distance, it is imperative hat a service like that is free as the greatest part of the population cannot get to the NA unless to great expense. In Belgium the maximum is about two hours in the car (if you live really really down south). What should a Welsh person do? Right, pay for Ancestry. In my mind, the tast of the government is to suply its populaton with properly organised archives that are accessible to all, regardless whether poor or rich and it should not leave it up to private companies to do so. There is a lot to be said about Ancestry as well that is not so favorable.

                                Scotland gives the good example, so why on earth can England not do the same? It is the question. Technology is avilable, only not the will.

                                I realise what those certs say and I will have to buy them or at least go and look at them anyway as I want to know, but I am still appalled at the price of it and I will do everything to deprive those people of their money out of principle. Point i, I have an uncmmon name. Having a common name practically forces one to subscribe, whether one wants that or not. That is my point.

                                The mistakes I met with:

                                Clearly misspelled name, not in the index. I know it is her, but her name is badly spelled on the copy of the cert (asked by family when she died).

                                A Richard turned into a Robert or vice versa. I know for sure it is her marriage and that is her father, yet his name has changed. There was only one possiblity in the whole era from 1837 to now for this person's marriage. Yet, on the cert, the father was clearly wrong, but the rest matched (husband, date of birth, everything).

                                I know people did not used to spell properly, but I can at least expect that they copy the mistakes properly then. Not that they change to their own fantasy. If Richards cn turn into Roberts I want to see for myself as that is quite important reagrding fathers' and mothers' names.

                                At any rate, I am also intrested in the signatures and what-not of people. You cannot get that on a copy.

                                But thanks for the info. I'll have a look at it.

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                                • #17
                                  As Caroline has said the promise of a price hike was just what I needed to finish some of my lines off! Unfortunately looking for the death of Great Grandmother in London has about 20 posibilities, I have crosschecked about 10 and pushed them into the possibility only zone but that still leaves 10 strong contenders! I have sent for two over the last few weeks, both negative. Now on to my third one, but as posting time is 6 April I am crossing my fingers this one is correct, otherwise the other seven will have to be done a little more gradually!

                                  Life will still be a lot easier looking for my English rellies, even with the price hike, than looking up to and beyond 1780 in Ireland! I would not wish Irish tracing on anybody, challenging though it may be!

                                  Kiki

                                  You sound so surprised about a Richard turning into a Robert. You will find that this name changing happens all the time to most people in genealogy. The more you do and the more certs you buy the more different spellings you will find. In the main the different spellings are NOT mistakes, but can be a person's way of stamping his/her identity in an area. Why did my Anna become Nancy????? Why did my grandmother Elizabeth become Connie????

                                  I have O'Neill spelt as:

                                  Neale/Neal/Neille/O'Neill/O'Neil/O'Neale/O'Neal/O'Neille all in one family! I could go on with many more examples in my own tree.

                                  I run a Family History Society and one of the first things I tell people is to take on board all spellings of a name, not that they were illiterate, but sometimes they may have wanted to be different, just like young people have different hair styles today. And as I have said many times before, please do not make the mistake of thinking that signing with a cross meant that your ancestor was illiterate. This is a MYTH and I have
                                  examples of many ancestors both signing and using a cross.

                                  Janet
                                  Last edited by Janet; 01-04-10, 11:32.

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                                  • #18
                                    "Ancesttry make money out of a service which should be free and should be funded by the government".

                                    The government do not have any money of their own, it is all taxpayers' money. I am a taxpayer and I do not see why anyone's HOBBY should be free. I certainly don't want to contribute to anyone's hang-gliding hobby, so why should they contribute to mine, of genealogy?

                                    OC

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                                    • #19
                                      OC

                                      Thing is unlike Hang-gliding, everybody has ancestry, whether they are interested in it or not. It is part of this country's heritage and history. The government spend lots of our money on preserving history, and arts and culture in this country, alot of it I personally have no interest in, but I don't object to my tax money going towards it all the same as I realise the wider benefit to the community. I think our relatives and their lives are more than a hobby, like hang-gliding, they are part of this countrys history, every last one of them, and are all important in their small way to the wider picture. Though it is not the point, I bet the government fund a lot dafter and more outragous things besides.....

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                                      • #20
                                        Richard

                                        I have no objection to paying through my taxes for the heritage aspect of genealogy, the preservation of archives. But if I (or anyone else) want a direct copy of something in that archive then I should pay for it, just as I would pay for a theatre ticket to go and see a play, or an entrance fee to an art gallery.

                                        I don't subscribe to the "genealogy is a worthy subject, so it should be free because so many people are interested in it". In fact, many peopole are only marginally interested in the subject and soon give up the minute they realise how tricky and expensive it is.

                                        OC

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