Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Family of English women in Russia

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Family of English women in Russia

    Try to find English family of :

    1) Catharine Robson (Hobson) died after 1823 in St.-Petersburg
    2) Elizabeth Tringham, born 23/8/1789 in St.-Petersburg
    3)Mary Paterson, born 5/2/1827 in St.-Petersburg

    All three English women were married with one of my English family Hide, who stayed for generations in Russia.

    I hope via them also to know more about the so far mysterious historie of the family in England.

    NB: I have searched the Guildhall archives allready!

    Thanks,

    alexander

  • #2
    Hi Alexander - are you trying to find further info in St Petersburg or prior to that?
    Do you know where your Hide's were in the UK?

    Comment


    • #3
      You'd probably have to look in St Petersburg really and then have a look whether you can find any of them in the census (very thorough). Maybe, somewhre, you could come across family relations or so.

      Their names should have been transcribed in Cyrillic. I have taken an attempt.

      Х/Гайд(э) - Hide: the 'h' does not exist in Russian. They substitute it by a 'ch' as in Dutch or a 'g' like in French. More likey is 'g'. I don't think the 'e' at the end in Cyrillic would be included, but I have put it in brackets in case you need it.
      Екатерина Роб/псон - Catherine would probably have been changed to Ekaterina. Depending on the pronunciation of the 'b' in Robson, it would have been transcribed as a 'b' or a 'p'.
      (?) Трин(ь)гам - I do not recall (at this moment) how Elizabeth would have been changed. Tringham would have been transcribed also with a French 'g' as the 'gh' sound does not exist in Russian either. Depending on the n being pronounced in Russia as a hard or soft one, there is the soft-sign in brackets.
      Мэри/Мария Пэтэрсон - Mary could have been literary transcribed to the English sound, or it could have been changed to Maria. Paterson would have been transcribed as it sounded.

      Good luck with it. Did they marry in England or not?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by naomiatt View Post
        Hi Alexander - are you trying to find further info in St Petersburg or prior to that?
        Do you know where your Hide's were in the UK?
        Naomiatt,

        I know a lot about those in russia via the Guildhall archives and some research in St.-Petersburg.
        But was is missing - the brick wall - is the place of birth of Charles Hide, born in 1782/1781.
        Almost certain in Engeland.
        So I try now also to see if women married with him and his son (?)- also Charles - can bring me some light.

        alexander

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by kiki1982 View Post
          You'd probably have to look in St Petersburg really and then have a look whether you can find any of them in the census (very thorough). Maybe, somewhre, you could come across family relations or so.

          Their names should have been transcribed in Cyrillic. I have taken an attempt.

          Х/Гайд(э) - Hide: the 'h' does not exist in Russian. They substitute it by a 'ch' as in Dutch or a 'g' like in French. More likey is 'g'. I don't think the 'e' at the end in Cyrillic would be included, but I have put it in brackets in case you need it.
          Екатерина Роб/псон - Catherine would probably have been changed to Ekaterina. Depending on the pronunciation of the 'b' in Robson, it would have been transcribed as a 'b' or a 'p'.
          (?) Трин(ь)гам - I do not recall (at this moment) how Elizabeth would have been changed. Tringham would have been transcribed also with a French 'g' as the 'gh' sound does not exist in Russian either. Depending on the n being pronounced in Russia as a hard or soft one, there is the soft-sign in brackets.
          Мэри/Мария Пэтэрсон - Mary could have been literary transcribed to the English sound, or it could have been changed to Maria. Paterson would have been transcribed as it sounded.

          Good luck with it. Did they marry in England or not?
          Dear Kiki,
          they where married in St.-Petersburg but that has given no information towards England.
          I know a lot about the persons in St.-Petersburg via the Guildhall archives, but still no link to England although they have been British subjects.
          Your transcriptions where right. Being Dutch I can tell you is a "g" and the "e " you can delete. Try now to pronounce it. The "i "in the middle is the biggest challenge.
          The other first names are more normal in Russian.
          Thanks,

          alexander

          Comment


          • #6
            So, no 'son of'... That's weird. That they wouldn't give a birth place, fine, but no parents seems weird.

            Have you checked passports? Not a lot of people had them in those days, but you needed them to travel, even then. Maybe you can try that. Certainly the men must have had them (don't know about women). Probably the women had them too.

            You could try the British embassy in St Petersburg/Moscow, or the consulate. Who knows, maybe they still have a possible something or they might be able to direct you somewhere (not Guildhall ;)).

            Did they register their marriage with the British (if they married in the Russian church)? I suppose they did as they are in Guildhall. Then there should somewhere be a father for him and a place so as to ascertain that there was no bigamy.

            Just thinking here, but you may have done that already.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by kiki1982 View Post
              So, no 'son of'... That's weird. That they wouldn't give a birth place, fine, but no parents seems weird.

              Have you checked passports? Not a lot of people had them in those days, but you needed them to travel, even then. Maybe you can try that. Certainly the men must have had them (don't know about women). Probably the women had them too.

              You could try the British embassy in St Petersburg/Moscow, or the consulate. Who knows, maybe they still have a possible something or they might be able to direct you somewhere (not Guildhall ;)).

              Did they register their marriage with the British (if they married in the Russian church)? I suppose they did as they are in Guildhall. Then there should somewhere be a father for him and a place so as to ascertain that there was no bigamy.

              Just thinking here, but you may have done that already.
              Dear Kiki,
              I do have passports but not of the first generations. Too early!
              They registered at the British Chapliancy, but only later.
              Guildhall and/or the Nat.Archives are still the best, but there seems to be a gap somewhere.
              But I continue climbing the brick wall.
              Thanks,
              alexander

              Comment


              • #8
                I seem to remember Defoe talking about passports even as early as the 17th century. It says on Wikipedia that Henry V of England in the 15th century was the first to issue passports as a means for English people to prove who they were in foreign lands (referenced). Passports were also required to trave through Europe (what your relatives must have done if they went over land) until mass rail travel came on the foreground in the mid 19th century. We are talking earlier, when passport rules were still able to be practiced.

                In addition to that, apparently, Russia and the Ottoman Empire kept rigid passport requirements up to the end of the 19th century where other countries relaxed them due to incontrollable mass rail travel that meant too much work. Even if your relaitves came by ship, they would have been registered. I cannot imagine that there is ab****ely nothing, but you'd probably have to ask a specialist Russian Archives to do that for you. Even to travel within Russia you needed papers, like Pushkin tells of, so I cannot imagine there is absolutely nothing. The Russian burocracy was rigid and famous for it. It is possible that some things were destroyed though by the Blitz or in WWI. But the Russians haven't had that many great problems.

                Unless your relatives imigrated illegally, but in czarist Russia that was not clever, and as they registered later, married there and also stayed there for generations to come, there is not a lot of chance that they were illegal.

                But certainly, keep climbing the brick wall ;)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kiki1982 View Post
                  I seem to remember Defoe talking about passports even as early as the 17th century. It says on Wikipedia that Henry V of England in the 15th century was the first to issue passports as a means for English people to prove who they were in foreign lands (referenced). Passports were also required to trave through Europe (what your relatives must have done if they went over land) until mass rail travel came on the foreground in the mid 19th century. We are talking earlier, when passport rules were still able to be practiced.

                  In addition to that, apparently, Russia and the Ottoman Empire kept rigid passport requirements up to the end of the 19th century where other countries relaxed them due to incontrollable mass rail travel that meant too much work. Even if your relaitves came by ship, they would have been registered. I cannot imagine that there is ab****ely nothing, but you'd probably have to ask a specialist Russian Archives to do that for you. Even to travel within Russia you needed papers, like Pushkin tells of, so I cannot imagine there is absolutely nothing. The Russian burocracy was rigid and famous for it. It is possible that some things were destroyed though by the Blitz or in WWI. But the Russians haven't had that many great problems.

                  Unless your relatives imigrated illegally, but in czarist Russia that was not clever, and as they registered later, married there and also stayed there for generations to come, there is not a lot of chance that they were illegal.

                  But certainly, keep climbing the brick wall ;)
                  I agree with you, certainly the Russian government at that time - not to speak of today! - would not have allowed people to come and work.

                  However those "passports"must have been given by the British authorities. Sofar nothing found. Archives of that date are far from complete.

                  What I still can not "accept" is that although many British have been working and travelling into/in Russia so few is known today.

                  Thanks and best wishes,

                  alexander

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    From the British I don't think you have to expect a lot... A lot was destroyed in the Blitz in London, and they were never great at taking copies of everything twice or three times. Typically burocratic countries used to copy and copy and copy some more and have huge archives and order everything with much care. Make indexes and summaries for another archive and such. So if there is not really the original record, there is the rest.

                    That is also a problem in my mind: I suppose a lot of things are lost because no-one knows they are there. You cannot search through indexes that aren't there. As such, the stuff might be existant, but you cannot search through it because there is no index. The seamen's archive (merchant navy) is one like that: a piee in London, a piece in Canada and another piece somewhere else, but not indexed. Only by ship, not by name, so you cannot search by name. Only by ship. Nor by number . That is mainly the problem, that people do not know the number, or the ship and they want to know that... Many marriages of before 1837 were registered by Pallott. It needed a private initiative to get to a 'serious' archive. And it is in no way complete even.

                    But that's enough of a rant.

                    I think you might do well to employ a Russian genealogist who could check through the immigration records and such things. He will know what to look for and where. And you will not have to deal with nasty Russians (they can be pretty nasty, although they mean well).

                    There should be censuses available. And they were maticulous! I don't know when exactly they were taken, but it could be earlier than the ones in Britain.

                    Do you know what they did, or was that also impossible to find?

                    Good luck!
                    Last edited by kiki1982; 30-03-10, 22:47.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kiki1982 View Post
                      From the British I don't think you have to expect a lot... A lot was destroyed in the Blitz in London, and they were never great at taking copies of everything twice or three times. Typically burocratic countries used to copy and copy and copy some more and have huge archives and order everything with much care. Make indexes and summaries for another archive and such. So if there is not really the original record, there is the rest.

                      That is also a problem in my mind: I suppose a lot of things are lost because no-one knows they are there. You cannot search through indexes that aren't there. As such, the stuff might be existant, but you cannot search through it because there is no index. The seamen's archive (merchant navy) is one like that: a piee in London, a piece in Canada and another piece somewhere else, but not indexed. Only by ship, not by name, so you cannot search by name. Only by ship. Nor by number . That is mainly the problem, that people do not know the number, or the ship and they want to know that... Many marriages of before 1837 were registered by Pallott. It needed a private initiative to get to a 'serious' archive. And it is in no way complete even.

                      But that's enough of a rant.

                      I think you might do well to employ a Russian genealogist who could check through the immigration records and such things. He will know what to look for and where. And you will not have to deal with nasty Russians (they can be pretty nasty, although they mean well).

                      There should be censuses available. And they were maticulous! I don't know when exactly they were taken, but it could be earlier than the ones in Britain.

                      Do you know what they did, or was that also impossible to find?

                      Good luck!
                      I have a Russian researcher now working. She was succesfull in tracing my father`s pedigree. My mother`s gave more problems.
                      I will ask her about some of your suggestions.
                      Thanks

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X