I got the birth certificate but .....

[dicole]

The GRO sent me the birth certificate for my gggf Robert Martin. It was great - told me he was born 24 Jan 1841 at 30 Hanover St Brighthelmstone (Brighton) his father William Martin, carpenter, mother Elizabeth Berwick.

Great, that matched with the family of William Mont?? (ancestry transcription) listed in the 1841 census in Hanover St with wife Elizabeth and sons William 2 and Roberts 5 months. All said to be born in Sussex.

In 1851, widowed Elizabeth Martin lived in Kew St Brighton with sons Robert, 10 and James, 8, all born in Brighton. Six William Martins died in Brighton 1841-1851.

Now I cannot find a marriage for Elizabeth Berwick and William Martin. Probably just around the time civil registration began, so possibly not done. I thought St Nicholas, Brighton would be the likely place to start, as it is well covered by the IGI.

Two or three possible baptisms for Willam Martin around 1816, but nothing for Elizabeth Berwick. If only I could find their marriage, and their father's names !

Any thoughts or suggestions, possibilties, appreciated

Diane

[yummy-mummy-amy]

hi,

i would keep going back to IGI as not all records appear every day - they vary them.

[dicole]

Yes, I will keep checking the IGI, and freebmd, too incase it turns up there

[Guest]

there is a marriage between a William Duke and a Elizabeth Berwick on FreeBMD in Dec 1837 Steyning Sussex , Brighton would come under Sussex.

[Jill on the A272]

I'd say Val's suggestion is very likely, Steyning district runs right up to Brighton.

Coincidentally, one of OH's family is in Kew St at no 6 in 1851 so when we're next there I'll be taking some photos & will take some for you of no 10 too.

[Cloggie]

The groom's surname is different though, or am I missing something? I thought Diane was looking for a William Martin & Elizabeth Berwick, and the Steyning marriage is for a William Duke.

[Christine in Herts]

There are a couple of Private trees on Ancestry with possible matches for Robert - tho' the second reads a bit strangely...

Robert Martin
Birth: 1841 - Brighton, Sussex
Robert Martin
Birth: 1841 - Brighton, Sussex, New Jersey, USA

Christine

[JBee]

There's something amiss with ancestry - it keeps putting various places in the US after the UK place name. So just ignore the New Jersey USA bit.

[Mary from Italy]

I think Ancestry automatically completes the address with an American place name if you don't put a complete address in your tree. Very silly idea.

[Jill on the A272]

The groom's surname is different though, or am I missing something? I thought Diane was looking for a William Martin & Elizabeth Berwick, and the Steyning marriage is for a William Duke.

oops, didn't read it properly

Only really took in the bit about the widow in Kew Street. Hanover St is not too far off my usual Brighton haunts so I may be able to get a photo there too.

[Mike Fisher]

now what is the exact wording on the certificate for the mother , does it say "Mary Martin formerly Berwick" or just "Mary Berwick" , if the later they weren't married

[dicole]

The birth certificate says Elizabeth Martin, formerly Berwick. I wish I could think that William Duke is really William Martin, but I cannot see why he would change his name (well, I guess there are many reasons !!)

I hoped to find Elizabeth Berwick's baptism, as although she said (well, the enumerator did) she was born in Brighton in the 1851 census, I am prepared to disbelieve her. Even Elizabeth Berwick does not seem to be a really uncommon name in Sussex.

I am now thinking about more roundabout ways to find out more about them.

Robert Martin described himself as a "gilder" both in England and when he was here in New South Wales. Was he an apprenticed gilder ? Was that why he married in Shoreditch ? If he was apprenticed as a gilder, would he have been allowed to get married at 20 - was that why he told the minister he was 22 ?

If he was apprenticed in Shoreditch, how did he come to such an apprenticeship ? Did that mean his father had some connections there ? More questions than I know what to do with !

I might send to the Local RO for William's death cert - they might be more willing to look at two or three possibilites for a carpenter in his 30s than the GRO !

Di

[Jill on the A272]

We had lunch in Brighton today and took a look at Kew Street where your & OH's ancestors once lived, it's now redeveloped but there are two photos in the James Grey collection taken before demolition in the 1950s/60s. (No 6 where OH's Jenners lived was a butchers with slaughterhouse according to a will that mentions the property, hope the smells & noises didn't disturb your folk at no 10!)

http://www.regencysociety-jamesgray.com/

(search box is halfway down the page) I'll pop over to Hanover St with the camera when I next go to Brighton without OH (soon after Easter) buildings there date from c1820

[dicole]

Thank you Jill, for looking at Kew St - its probably not surprising that its been redeveloped - I have been looking at places where the ancestors lived around Sydney, and many of them have been replaced by a block of flats, or a large modern home. Kew St sounds like it must have been a bit of a come down from Hanover St.

All those streets with the similar names, Hanover St, Hanover Cresent, Hanover Terrace, Bloomsbury Place and Bloomsbury St, must have driven the tradesmen mad.

[Caroline]

There are no Elizabeth Berwick/William Martin marriages appearing on the Sussex Marriage Index, there are a couple of other William Martins marrying an Elizabeth at about the right time and place.

William Duke is a carpenter by the way and that marriage took place in Preston.

[dicole]

So where to now ? I am looking in freebmd for a possible birth for William Martin about 1839 and James Martin about 1842, maybe their birth certs might have be purchased. Perhaps Berwick, or Berrick, was just what the clerk misheard when recording the birth of Robert.

I don't think William's death cert. will provide any clues, except maybe who the informant was might be useful.

Just checked, no William Martins born (registered) in Brighton in 1838-39 - Tonbridge (Mar 1838), Battle (Jun 1839) or Midhurst (Sep 1839), or two unnamed Male Martins, Dec Q 1839 and Sep Q 1838 both in Brighton. The best fit age-wise to the 1841 census, is probably the Sep Q 1838 one !!

[Little Nell]

Trouble is that although Robert was born in Brighton it doesn't mean his parents were married there, or even near there. William could have been born elsewhere, they may have married in his home parish. Perhaps you need to ask if someone can check the banns books. I have found banns called for rellies when the marriage register was too damaged to read, that gave me a rough idea of which month and year the marriage occurred.

[dicole]

Good idea Nell, or even Elizabeth's home parish. In my family we have couples getting married in all sorts of odd places, some scarpering off to London, others miles from the bride or grooms birth parish - presumably where they were working. Second marriages in the next county seemed popular too.

I think I might ask the East Sussex Record Office for the birth of male Martin in Sep 1838 and hope its the right one and with a bit more info. If I fluke the right one, I could ask them to check for a marriage which might not have made it to the GRO index.

Logically it should not have been too long before 1838, unless all their earlier children died before 1841. (yes I know, Stop throwing spanners) The rest of my families have be regular and orderly and therefore easy to find, or I have just been extremely lucky with my guesswork !

It puzzles me that there are no records for this family at St Nicholas Brighton, which would be their local church - and most of the records are in the IGI, but nothing for the Martins (another spanner, did they have a non-conformist period maybe)

more tomorrow perhaps

[Caroline]

There are no Elizabeth Berwick/William Martin marriages appearing on the Sussex Marriage Index, there are a couple of other William Martins marrying an Elizabeth at about the right time and place.

William Duke is a carpenter by the way and that marriage took place in Preston.

I had a look in the Hampshire Index too - they didn't appear there either, but that stops at 1837.

[dicole]

Hi Caroline,

Any William Martins marrying an Elizabeth which might be misconstrued as Berwick ? although I can make no suggestions as to what it might have been - Barwick is the only variation I can think of.

I tracked down a William Duke (30) and his wife Elizabeth Jane (30) in Brighton in the 1841 census - they had children William 3, Elizabeth 7 and Jane 10 months. Also in Steyning in 1841 is an umarried William Duke (27) with his mother (?) well, older woman Ann Duke (40), and children Alfred 10, Thomas 10, and Mary 5.

So I don't think either are my William Martin in disguise. I have asked GRO for the birth certificate for the Male Martin registered in Sep 1838 in Brighton, with a check point of father Wililam Martin - and now I am sure, if its the right one, exactly the same as Roberts, and I will still be searching for a William Martin-Elizabeth Berwick marriage.

I am off to watch Neil Diamond's Hot August Night on Foxtel.

Di