The Butler's

[naomiatt]

According to the 1881 census, Edward Vincent Butler aged 13, was born in Liverpool.
His brother, Ernest, aged 12, was born in Portsmouth and their mother, Emma Butler, aged 35,
was also born in Portsmouth. Their address was Margate Road, Canterbury.
(Schedule #90 Pge 24) – Emma's husband, also Edward, does not show.

Edward jnr, aged 28, and Marie nee Bernstein, aged 22, married in November, 1895, St Geo.East.
Edward’s address was 191 City Road, Holborn, and his occupation was Printer.
Marie’s was 6 Grove Road (St Geo.East) and her occupation was Tailoress.
Edward’s father (deceased) was also named Edward and his occupation was Chaplain.
Family lore says that Emma’s husband was a Catholic Priest.

By 1911, Emma was a widowed grandmother aged 65 and was visiting in Balham with her adopted granddaughter, Nellie Butler, aged 6, whilst her daughter in law, Marie Butler, was in Clapham Maternity Hospital.

Edward and Marie and Ernest both went to South Africa.
Their daughter, also called Emma (d.) belonged to The Butler Society which was based in Kilkenny - via a lady in Pietermaritzburg SA – this was in the 1960's.
One of Edward and Marie’s grandsons was named D***d O****d after the Duke of Ormond of Kilkenny Castle fame. James Butler, third Earl of Ormond, bought the Castle in 1391.

I’ve not found the family in an earlier or later census. Were the Butler’s from Kilkenny?

[Darksecretz]

Naomi,

in the 1881 Emma is shown as a widow, and I havent heard of an Islington IN liverpool, praps I'm wrong? but thats what it says on the image.

[Cloggie]

Yes, there is an Islington district in Liverpool.
It's one of the districts listed here: http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.u...ensus_Pubs.htm

[Darksecretz]

well blow me Sarah.. I sit corrected! :D

[Chrissie Smiff]

This might be a possible marriage and birth to hang on to for future reference -

Marriage of Edward Butler to a possible Emma Atkins in Dec 1867 in Birkenhead 8a 696 (and a possible matching birth of Emma Atkins in March 1844 in Liverpool 20 454). Ignore this birth and see possible birth lower down.

[Cloggie]

and a possible matching birth of Emma Atkins in March 1844 in Liverpool 20 454.

According to the 1881 census, Emma was born in Portsea/Portsmouth, so unfortunately that birth reference is not likely to be her.

[Cloggie]

Family lore says that Emma’s husband was a Catholic Priest.

Do you mean he had formerly been a priest and then gave up the priesthood to marry her?
Because Catholic priests are not allowed to marry!

[Janet]

The Butlers are from Thurles Tipperary. They have several family seats including the most famous Ormond Castle at Carrick on Suir. Edmund Butler was granted the land and manor at Carrick in 1315 so the Kilkenny Castle was a later castle. The Castle at Carrick was built between 1315 and the 1500's with many additions to the original castle. There were many James Butler down the generations. The Butlers were an Anglo/Norman family that came to Ireland 1171 and became the Earls of Ormond later Dukes of Ormonde.(The e of Ormonde was added after the honour of Duke was bestowed, but it is Ormond Castle not Ormonde Castle.) I have a book on the Butlers of Ormond so if you want any other info ask and I will see what I have got.

Their family tree is very well documented so if you are related it will be easy to find through their archives. I have visited Ormond Castle and it is a great place to visit. I have an interest as my family are fromThurles and some of the baptismal sponsors are Butlers as well as being tenants of the Butlers.

I think you will find a lot of Irish lore/myth/legend are just that! I have been told that I am related to Hugh O'Neill who fought a famous battle against Cromwell in Carrick on Suir 1641 and who is buried nearby! Proving it is going to be a tad difficult but I have got back to 1827 on my O'Neill side!! Just a few more centuries to roll back, but without the backup material that is just not available in Ireland I am doubtful of being able to prove anything! Good story though like everything Irish!



Janet

[naomiatt]

Hi everyone - thanks for all of the info...basically, yes, it does seem that Emma did have the children with Edward the Priest...Edward Jnr called him a Chaplain on his marriage cert in 1895.
I'm not sure if he left his role..or if Emma assumed marriage to save face...can anyone see Emma and her children in 1871 - with or without a father showing?
Apparently Edward snr died when Edward jnr was aged around 12-14.

Also, please could someone tell me the full address for them in Islington, Liverpool, in the 1881..and does it provide an occupation for Emma?

Thanks for the offer re; the book Janet. Think I have to try and go immediately backwards first...and like you say, there is a lot of myth!
Good stories though!

[Cloggie]

Hi everyone - thanks for all of the info...basically, yes, it does seem that Emma did have the children with Edward the Priest...Edward Jnr called him a Chaplain on his marriage cert in 1895.
I'm not sure if he left his role..or if Emma assumed marriage to save face...can anyone see Emma and her children in 1871 - with or without a father showing?
Apparently Edward snr died when Edward jnr was aged around 12-14.

Also, please could someone tell me the full address for them in Islington, Liverpool, in the 1881..and does it provide an occupation for Emma?

A chaplain isn't necessarily a priest, and a chaplain isn't necessarily Catholic. It would be interesting to see what he calls himself on his marriage certificate and on the sons' birth certificates.

As you state in your first post, the address on the 1881 census is Margate Road, Canterbury, Portsea, Hampshire.
Edward V. Butler's place of birth is given as Islington, Liverpool. Emma is shown as a widow and an annuitant.

Here's the family from the 1881 census on www.familysearch.org, which is a free site:

Emma BUTLER Head W Female 35 Portsmouth Portsea Annuitant
Edward V. BUTLER Son U Male 13 Liverpool Islington Scholar
Ernest BUTLER Son U Male 12 Portsmouth Portsea Scholar

Source Information:
Dwelling Margate Rd Canterbury
Census Place Portsea, Hampshire, England
Family History Library Film 1341284
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 1159 / 15
Page Number 24

[Cloggie]

There are some transcriptions of Portsea baptisms, marriages and burials here: http://www.knightroots.co.uk/parishes.htm
I've had a quick look, but didn't spot any of your Butlers.

And a couple of sites to keep an eye on for Liverpool records:

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/

http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/

[Chrissie Smiff]

According to the 1881 census, Emma was born in Portsea/Portsmouth, so unfortunately that birth reference is not likely to be her.

Thank you Sarah, I had forgotten that. In that case, there are a couple of possible births that might be worth keeping a note of.
Emma Atkins - June 1846 Portsea Island 7 169 and an Emma Eliza Atkins March 1845 Portsea 7 149.

[naomiatt]

Hi everyone - found out some more info that was written on a Family Bible -
Rev Edward Butler died 16th July 1879
Emma Butler died 19th August 1912
Edward Vincent Butler born 14th September 1867
Ernest Ormond Butler - no dates on the bible - apparently he received an OBE in Africa (South Africa)
If the 1881 census is accurate, I've not found a birth for Edward junior, well, not in Liverpool..closest is Manchester, Aston or Wolverhampton for Sept quarter, 1867 and no Edward Butler's for the Dec quarter, 1867...are some records missing??
Deaths for Edward Butler -
Sep 1879
Butler Edward 44 Stoke D.
5b 181
Butler Edward 54 Walsall
6b 319
Butler Edward 20 W. Ham
4a 5
Butler Edward 28 W. Ham
4a 4a
Deaths for Emma Butler
Deaths Sep 1912
Butler Emma 66 Marylebone
1a 506
Butler Emma E 57 Chesterton
3b 417
Deaths Dec 1912
BUTLER Emma 77 Tetbury
6a 432

[Karen S]

The death in Stoke Damerel, Devon ties in with his age and where he was serving as a military chaplain.

[naomiatt]

The death in Stoke Damerel, Devon ties in with his age and where he was serving as a military chaplain.

Hi Karen - thanks! How did you find info re; him being a Military Chaplain?

[Karen S]

He is on a tree on ancestry and he is in Portsea on the 1871 census as a R. Catholic military chaplain.

The address for Edward on the 1871 is Yarborough Rd, 45 Worsley lodge.
Ernest birth cert from tree on ancestry has place of birth as 12 lion terrace
1881 for Emma Butler they are on Margate rd. Google map show they are all fairly close in Portsea.

[Karen S]

Found them on the 1871.

They are down as Osmond, Emma a surgeons wife. Vincent aged 3 born Liverpool and Ernest aged 2 born Portsea.
I found them by following her sister Fanny.

The address is 5 Duncan Rd. Portsea

[Cloggie]

Well done Karen for spotting the Ancestry tree!

It gives the names as Edward Ormond Butler, born 1834 in Nova Scotia, and Emma Atkins, born 1846 in Portsea. There is a birth certificate for Ernest on the Ancestry tree, which gives the father as Edward Vincent Ormond, occupation Surgeon Peninsular and Oriental Company's Service, and the mother as Emma Ormond, formerly Atkins.

That tree lists an 1869 marriage for Emma Atkins in Southampton registration district, but the names of the other people on the page don't appear to tie in. From FreeBMD:
Marriages Sep 1869
Atkins Emma Southampton 2c 10
Jeffery Charles Southampton 2c 10
Matthews Edward Southampton 2c 10
Stone Elizabeth Southampton 2c 10

Not sure how accurate the Ancestry tree is, as the 1867 marriage Chrissie found seems more likely, but it would be worth contacting the tree owner, as he seems to have quite a bit of information and some photos and documents.

Have you got an Ancestry subscription Naomi? If not, I would be happy to try to contact the tree owner on your behalf if you PM me your e-mail address.

[naomiatt]

Hi - wow, thanks everyone!! I don't have a sub to A..have sent you a pm Cloggie.

[Cloggie]

Message sent. Fingers crossed you hear from him soon!