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  • Where Are They?

    Abraham BERNSTEIN, tailor, had a number of children – around the end of 1919, beginning of 1920, a letter mentioned his following children;

    Marie/Mary (b.1873) married Edward Vincent Butler – Nov, 1895, St Geo East – Address 6 Grove St – 1911 says she was German - daughter, Emma Marie Gladys Butler born 31/3/1911 in Clapham and an adopted daughter Elenor/Nellie, born around 1903 in South Africa.
    Joseph – Not sure if he married. Went to the ‘Left’ – last heard of in 1917/18
    Rebecca/Becky married Hyman Gold, Whitechapel, Dec quarter, 1915 – known child – *****, born St.Geo East, 1919 – possible other children, Lily born 1916 died 1917,
    ****, born Whitechapel, 1921, ****** born St.Geo.East, 1922, ***** born Holborn, 1925, ***** born Holborn, 1926,
    ***** born Stepney, 1928 and ****born Stepney, 1931
    Louis – married ? with a son
    David?
    Fanny – single according to the letter
    Janie - “ “
    Katie - “ “
    Albie - “ “
    Rachel - two sons who died around 1910 and one later and three daughters aged 5, 8 and 12
    so born around 1906-08, 1910-12 and 1913-1915. No names to identify them or Rachel’s husband.

    On Marie’s marriage cert, Abraham is listed as deceased, according to the letter, he was still alive
    but gravely ill and the doctor was coming around every day. He may have been listed as deceased on the marriage cert as Marie had married out of the Jewish religion, her husband was Catholic.

    By 1918/1920, Marie and Edward were living in South Africa and the letter was sent from Becky who
    was living in London - 3 Norfolk Blgs, Crellin St, (which later on became St. Johns ) off Cannon St. Rd.

    Gone round in circles trying to find the family in any census (except for Marie and her daughter born on census night, 1911, and Nellie and her grandmother (Edward's mother, Emma Butler) who were in Tooting that night).

    All others mentioned are deceased****
    Last edited by naomiatt; 18-03-10, 22:41.

  • #2
    sorry n.... trawled Bernstein incl variations of surname//forenames, but eluding me!! Any idea when Abraham arrived in England or which of his children were born there?
    Olga

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    • #3
      Hi Olga - I know - pain in the &%$#@$!!! Well, they must have been in London by November, 1895, when Marie married Edward.
      Crunch is, was Abraham deceased by then, or did Marie describe him as that because she had been disowned.
      Orthodox Jewish people would have disowned their child..especially a female..for marrying out...and likewise, a strict Catholic family probably would have done the same...only in this case, it does seem that Marie was accepted by Edward's family.

      In the letter, Albie (Albert??) is described as 'Little Albie'..and Fanny, Katie and Janie were "still single"..this was towards the end of 1919, beginning of 1920...so assume they might all show at home in 1911..with or without Abraham. Rebecca/Becky didn't marry until 1915..so she should show as well..
      Louis's son was around 5, so born around 1915..perhaps Louis showed at home as well..Joseph was in WW1..so poss he was still at home..
      Rachel was already married prior to 1911..David is a question mark - there's a fold in the letter where the name appears.

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      • #4
        Didnt know there were so many variations of ''Bernstein''.....In Yorks it's Bernstain, I imagined my nan saying it that way...guess it's the accent.. LOL ...Tried with just forenames, just the surname ... born in Russia/ Poland/ Germany/ London....there has to be either a mistrans or they managed to avoid census.... or... ''I dont know what''!!... Dont suppose you know what Abraham's wife's name was, probably a stupid question because you would have posted it!! Or did I miss it!!
        I've found a couple of Bernsteins on their own, one is Joseph b 1885 Russia/Poland occ tailor, living with family Goldberg in Hampstead...... Occ tailor wasnt a great deal of help because it seems to be a general trade/profession... Anyway I'll send them to you so you can take a look... Meanwhile, back at the ranch!!! .....I shall keep looking because they have to be somewhere!

        P.S. do you have Rebecca's marriage cert, if you do does it have her age on it?
        Last edited by olga_b; 08-03-10, 22:40.
        Olga

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        • #5
          Hi Olga...yes, there's loads of variations! Sometimes it's easier looking for Smith!..well, maybe not!
          I don't have the mother's name. I do have the marriage cert though...Marie was aged 22.
          Bit of discrepancy with her place of birth..1911 says Germany....a bible says she was born in London...hmmm!!
          The family were told that the Bernstein's came from Brest Litovsk..but no accurate proof on that.
          At one time it was Russian, another Polish etc etc

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          • #6
            Hi Naomi Received the message from Sarah. I have done some interesting research on the Butler family and documented what I know on Ancestry.com to which I will invite you to have access. The Late Lord Dunboyne provided some interesting information on Ernest Ormond Butler ( My great great Grandfather) the Catholic Priest who appeared to live a double life. this became evident from the Birth Certificate of Ernest Ormond Butler where he listed himself as Vincent Edward ORMOND. I have quite abit of information on Ernest Ormond Butler (My Great Grandfather) who ended up in South Africa and was wounded during the Siege of Mafeking and ended up as magistrate in Bechuanaland (Now Botswana) and did indeed receive the OBE.
            My grandfather (Edward Butler) ended up in Rhodesia, was a successful farmer and served with the Desert Rats in North Africa in WWII where he was wounded. My father (Michael Edward BUTLER) farmed in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe until the land invasions took hold in 2000. He died in 2003. I now live in St Francis Bay in South Africa.

            I have very little information on Edward Vincent Butler so interested to learn more about him.The only thing my father ever told me was that he was one "hellava" character?

            Extracts from Lord Dunboyne's letter as follows:
            A.E. BUTLER : FAMILY TREE

            Extracts from letters from The Lord Dunboyne:

            James Butler (son of Richard and Margaret Butler of the parish of Pollrone, Co. Kilkenny) who married in St. Peter’s Chapel, Halifax, Nova Scotia, on 12 April 1825, Mary (daughter of Denis HOLLY and Mary POMPATTON of Windsor, Nova Scotia).

            BUTLER, Edward from Nova Scotia - Halifax; Educated Carlow College 1849 - 1852; ordained about 1853 for Halifax, Nova Scotia. Served in Plympton and Annapolis 1853 - 57 - Chaplain to the Forces at Halifax, 1859. In 1865 he left Halifax with troops. No further record.

            Rev. Edward Butler was a Catholic Army Chaplain 1859 - 1879 - first at Halifax, Nova Scotia; 1 April 1859 (4th class); then at Portsmouth (4th class) 1867 - 1869; then 3rd class in 1869, and at Colchester 1872 - 1873; then he went with troops to the Gold Coast in 1874 when he was promoted a 2nd Class Chaplain; then back in Devonport, 1875 - 1879. The Catholic Directory of 1873 gives his address as 8 Cambridge Place, Colchester and of 1875 - 1879, as 3 Collingwood Villas, Stoke, Devonport.

            When he was stationed at Portsmouth, he and Emma, nee ATKINS, of Portsea, fell deeply in love, and eloped to Birkenhead, Cheshire, where they married in 1867 at the Registry Office, she perhaps with no deception, but he obliged to pretend he was “surgeon”, instead of an R.C. Army Chaplain.

            Similarly, she kept up the pretense when registering the birth of your great-grandfather Ernest Butler as son of “Vincent Edward Ormond, surgeon of the P & O Company” in 1869. I may of course be quite wrong but that is how it all, at the moment, seems to me to make sense. At Somerset House, London, are his Will and hers. He, as “Edward Butler of Colchester, Essex, Chaplain to the Forces” made his Will on 15 November 1873, leaving a legacy to Robert ANDERSON of Colchester and all the residue to “my cousin Emma EDWARDS of Colchester”, whom I take to be really Emma nee ATKINS. Noticeably it was not until 7 December 1882 that administration with the Will annexed was granted to “Emma BUTLER (in the will written Emma EDWARDS) widow, residuary legatee”. I expect Anderson, the sole Executor, had not died until then. The Rev. (R.C.) Edward Butler died in Ker Street, Devonport, 16 July 1879. Emma Butler, widow, died in the Middlesex Hospital, 19 August, 1912.

            Her will dated 17 January, 1912, in the name of “Emma BUTLER of Freedenheim Hospital, Middlesex, widow” left her grandsons, Ernest Cecil BUTLER and Edward BUTLER, thirty pounds each; her granddaughters, Kathleen BUTLER and Emma Marie BUTLER, thirty pounds each; to Ernest Alexander YOUNG ten pounds and to his wife, Gwendoline, five pounds; residue to be divided equally between her sons, Edward Vincent BUTLER and Ernest Ormond BUTLER. Additional five pounds to her grandson, Edward BUTLER.



            This will was proved in London 12 September 1912 by the sole Executor, “Ernest Ormond Butler” (given in the will as “of Francistown, Bechuanaland Protectorate” and in the Index of Wills at Somerset House, London, as “Ernest Oswald BUTLER, civil servant.” His estate was valued at Two Hundred and Six Pounds and hers at Six Hundred and Twenty Six Pounds.

            I take it you would not mind if these facts were known. Obviously deception was necessary to preserve his job and pension as Army Chaplain and it seems to be a rather charming, romantic story.

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            • #7
              Hi butlerT - Great to see all of this info..would you mind copy and pasting this info to "The Butler's" topic . Thanks! Naomiatt

              PS...Olga - I've asked JP to join FTF...she is a ggd of Edward senior..gd of Edward and Marie nee
              Bernstein - all deceased.
              Last edited by naomiatt; 18-03-10, 22:39.

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              • #8
                Have found that 6 Grove Street, besides appearing on Marie's marriage cert..is also listed as an address for a Rebecca Bernstein, born 1892,
                who went to school in Bickle St (that was part of Jewish Free School) and her guardian is listed as Davis Bernstein.

                Marie's sister - Rebecca/Becky married Hyman Gold, Whitechapel, Dec quarter, 1915 – known child – *****, born St.Geo East, 1919 – possible other children, Lily born 1916 died 1917,
                ****, born Whitechapel, 1921, ****** born St.Geo.East, 1922, ***** born Holborn, 1925, *****born Holborn, 1926.

                I wonder if it's the same Rebecca??

                The 1911 has Davis Bernstein living at 6 Norfolk Buildings...Rebecca wrote her letter from 3 Norfolk Buildings.

                All others mentioned in this post are deceased.
                Last edited by naomiatt; 18-03-10, 22:53.

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                • #9
                  Applied for some certs - Becky and Hyman's marriage - birth cert for their son born in 1919 - marriage cert for a Louis Bernstein to a
                  Bertha Krisky in 1914 (not sure if it's the right Louis) and birth cert for Rebecca born in 1892.

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                  • #10
                    Hi - Received Rebecca/Becky's marriage cert, 21st Nov, 1915 - her father shows as Aaron** Bernstein, Carpenter, and the address was 6 Norfolk Buildings, Crellin Street. Rebecca was aged 23, a cap machinist.
                    The groom, Hyman, aged 26, Mantle Presser, was the son of Israel Gold, a Carman and Contractor. The marriage took place at New Road Synagogue in Whitechapel.
                    Last edited by naomiatt; 06-04-10, 05:38.

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                    • #11
                      Got another cert - marriage for Louis Bernstein - 6th Jan 1914 - aged 24, Tailor Journeyman, son of Aaron Bernstein - Cabinet Maker (would this equate to Carpenter??) - to Bertha Krisky, aged 24, Tailoress, daughter of Jacob Krisky, Tailor. The address for both was 356 Mile End Road. They also married at the New Road Synagogue in Whitechapel.

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                      • #12
                        Have sent you an email in relation to Bertha Krisky.
                        WendyP

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                        • #13
                          That's great - thanks WendyP. Now trying to work out if Aaron is also Abraham and Davis - and if Louis and Rebecca were siblings!! :D

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                          • #14
                            Received another cert for the birth of Hyman and Rebecca (nee Bernstein) GOLD's son - Address was 3 Norfolk Buildings - 20th November 1919

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                            • #15
                              Help Can anyone see an Aaron Bernstein that could match this family?

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                              • #16
                                Received another cert for Hyman and Rebecca GOLD's daughter - born 15th March, 1922. Not found a marriage on FreeBMD...Becky reported the birth in St Geo & St John. Address was also 3 Norfolk Buildings. Daughter might be living??

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                                • #17
                                  this Bernstein family are living at 6 Norfolk Buildings in 1911 St George in the East London
                                  for more info you will have to buy credits, this is from the free listing
                                  DAVIS c. 1844 age 67
                                  JANE T c. 1863 age 48
                                  REBECCA c. 1891 age 20
                                  SIMON c. 1893 age 18
                                  FANNY c. 1895 age 16
                                  KATE c. 1897 age 14
                                  SAM c. 1899 age 12
                                  JANE c. 1901 age 10
                                  ABRAHAM c. 1903 age 8
                                  LOUIS c. 1909 age 2

                                  mm

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                                  • #18
                                    3 norfolk buildings

                                    BEINSTEIN ABRAHAM c. 1875 age 36
                                    BEINSTEIN HYMAN c. 1896 age 15
                                    BEINSTEIN ISAAC c. 1898 age 13
                                    BEINSTEIN MORRIS c. 1905 age 6
                                    BEINSTEIN RACHEAL c. 1875 age 36
                                    BEINSTEIN SOLLY c. 1901 age 10


                                    mm

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                                    • #19
                                      the family from 3 Norfolk buildings in 1901

                                      1901
                                      Rose Bernstein c. 1873 Russia Russ Subject
                                      Abraham Bernstein c. 1875 Russia Russ Subject
                                      Hyman H Bernstein c. 1896 Russia Russ Subject
                                      Isaac Bernstein c. 1898 Russia Russ Subject
                                      Solomon Bernstein c. 1900 St George in The East, London, England

                                      mm

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                                      • #20
                                        all the children from 6 Norfolk Buildings come up as born in London...Davis and Jane born Russia

                                        mm

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