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  • Bare knuckle fighters

    I wonder if anyone can help me to find any information about a James Carney 1857 - 1941 an English champion bare knuckle fighter. I can trace all his boxing history but nothing about the man himself. Who were his parents, was he married. Anu help wouild be appreciated.T hanks in advance . He was born in Birmingham and died in London. His last job was a bodyguard

  • #2
    Hi - have you seen this book? - ULTIMATE TOUGH GUY
    The Life and Times of James J. Jeffries
    By J*m Carney Jr. Could be coincidence, but I wonder if the author is related to James Carney?
    boxing, boxer, fight results, HBO, boxing ring, schedule, TV fights, fighters, rankings, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Sugar Ray, Oscar De La Hoya, Roy Jones, boxing champion, fighters, ringside, schedules, highlights, rankings, espn, rahman, hasim, HBO, After, Dark, Classic Sports, Ceasar's Palace, training, results, sports, news, newsletter, matches, lightweights, featherweights, heavyweights, welterweights, middleweights, bantamweights, flyweights, cruiserweights, light, heavyweights, super, middleweights, junior, middleweights, junior, welterweights, junior, lightweights, junior, bantamweights, games, champions, women's, boxing, WBA ,WBC, IBF, sweet, science, Oscar, De La Hoya, Evander, Holyfield, Mike, Tyson, George, Foreman, Lennox, Lewis, pound-for-pound, squared, circle, fighters, sweet, science, boxing

    Was James also known as John "Jim" Carney? who won the Lonsdale Belt in the 1920's?
    The Lonsdale Belt is the oldest championship belt in boxing. The belt is named after Lord Lonsdale who was patron of the National Sporting Club.

    The person who wrote this article (name at the bottom) might have some more info as well -

    There is this birth for Birmigham - could be a good possibility - although all the articles seems to say end of Nov1857
    Births Dec 1856
    Carney James Birmingham 6d 103
    You can apply for the certificate and that will provide more information
    This says that he came from Irish parents

    Was he back in the UK in 1911? Any idea where? You might find him on http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx
    Last edited by naomiatt; 18-02-10, 20:42.

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    • #3
      Was carney not a name that was connected to fair grounds and that sort of thing? ( Especially the trickster find the lady type of thing) I read it somewhere but I can't remember where

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      • #4
        Its an Irish name. When we were kids, I remember a lady in our road used to say "She looked a proper Kate Carney". I always wondered who Kate Carney was - lol.

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        • #5
          But back to Harrys query. Harry, how is the man connected to you. Its just some sort of relationship somewhere in his life would help trace him in census etc.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Heather Positive Thinker View Post
            Its an Irish name. When we were kids, I remember a lady in our road used to say "She looked a proper Kate Carney". I always wondered who Kate Carney was - lol.
            Hi - she was a singer and played the music halls etc - also known as the Coster Comedienne...
            sounds like she was quite a lady - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Carney

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            • #7
              Many thanks for your replies. I am very grateful to you all for the information you have given me and thanks again for the time and trouble you have taken.
              No Naomiatt I have not seen the book but will look out for in the library. James was also known as Jem but not Jim jnr or John.
              The year of his birth are confusing 1856 or 1857. I applied to Birmingham Registry on 6d 103 for a birth certificate but they returned it pointing out that the dates did not match up. I think the birthday 5 Nov may be wrong, I will reapply but I am not sure what year to try
              His connection to my family is on my mothers side GROGAN and his name was often mentioned. I am 83 years old and most of the older members of my family have long gone so I have no one to ask for any help. Most of our family documents were lost in the blitz in the last war
              Thanks again everyone and have a good weekend

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              • #8
                Hello Harrry - FreeBMD shows it as this - Births Dec 1856
                Carney James Birmingham 6d 103
                I belieive you can apply by not giving a birth date....and just the quarter and the year with this page and volume number. BMD definitely shows 1856 and not 1857.
                I couldn't see another James Carney born in Birmingham near that year otherwise.
                Someone might be able to offer more insight on that.
                I had a look through my OH's boxing books....he's a fan and knows a fair bit about the history....and Jem is there....but it basically names the fights you already know about.
                If you can give us info on your parent's side, names, when they married etc...then perhaps we can help you go back in time and connect your mother to the Carney's. Do you know if it was through her maternal or paternal side?
                I had a quick look for a Grogan and Carney marriage using the exact spelling -
                http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl Marriages Jun 1913
                Carney Esther Grogan Liverpool 8b 151
                Grogan Richard Carney Liverpool 8b 151
                and
                Marriages Jun 1936
                Carney Ma***r*t Grogan Dewsbury 9b 1662
                Grogan M*****l Carney Dewsbury 9b 1662
                The Liverpool family show four children - M*****l, J***s, M**y and C*******e - born from 1915-1926 - so there could have been other children in between that....I didn't search with alternative spellings

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                • #9
                  Hi naomiatt. Thank you for your reply. I am going to try again for a BC using only the quarter and year O/N//dec 1856. I might be lucky this time.With regard to the later Grogan connections I can't remember any. He was born in Birmingham and I do not know of any Liverpool Grogans.Still one does know for sure. I am in contact with three other searchers on Ancestry.com looking for a connection, but no joy at the moment. Between the three of us we have such a large tree it would be difficult to select any member of the Grogans to establish a link with Carney.In the meantime we will keep trying. Have a good weekend. Harry

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                  • #10
                    Hi Harry - Be interesting to see how you get on with that cert. Carney's show in Birmingham on FreeBMD from 1839. Assuming he was still in Birmingham in 1861 or 1871, have you or the others tried to find the family on a census?
                    Have you been able to find the death for Gem on a paid site? The articles all say September, 1941 but a discrepancy with the day. Any ideas where he would have been living in 1911 (think he was back in the UK by then) -
                    there are 9 showing at that time frame - two in the East End of London, five in Lancs, one in Yorks and one in Glamorganshire.
                    Could also be worth looking at the man who he was a bodyguard to...I'm assuming it could be George Alexander Baird who was an amateur jockey, pugilist and Derby winning owner. He was a character, had an affair with Lily Langtry and passed away in New Orleans in 1893.
                    Perhaps there's more mention of Gem if you look in to his background.
                    Last edited by naomiatt; 20-02-10, 21:28.

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                    • #11
                      Actually Jem was also bodyguard to Edward VII who had an affair with Lily Langtry and as he (Jem) is reputed to be my grandmothers uncle I watched the TV series years ago and there was a little bloke (he was no more than 5' 5") playing his part in the series. He was also bodyguard to Earl of Abington

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                      • #12
                        Hi keyreal - great to see you here, and sounds like you may be a cousin to Harry Hough

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