Where are all the FACTS hid??

[Pipeman]

I am trying to trace my 2xG/Gfather's parents, from about the 1820s. My G/Gfather, Joseph Hardman is on the 1851 Census as
3ms old. When I look back at the 1841, his father John is 25 married to Hannah also 25. They have a daughter Alice (Partington) 5 and a son James Hardman 1.
As Alice was called Hardman on the 51 Census, I am asuming she was Hannah's daughter, not John's. When I got my G/Gfather's B/Cert. mother is down as "Hannah Hardman formally Partington" I have tried every way and where to find
A) Hannah in a previous marriage and can't
B) A birth record for Alice and can't.
As I can find 9 marriages for an Alice Hardman between 1851 and 1861 when she no longer appears on the family return. Does it mean sending for all 9 to find the right one!! That might have cleared up the question of her father's name.
To see if Hannah was a widow or a single mum. I sent for Joseph's B/Cert to see if it would help and it says, 'Formally' and not 'Maiden name' for his mother's entry. What would YOU think or is there a requirment to state the full facts???

To make things worse, I can't find a marriage record "on line" for John and Hannah. Could it be that they never married and she just put married on all subsiquent census returns.
As I can't find any marriages "on line" I'm not sure which Church Records to search. But would that help when I don't know what John's Parents names were and ultimately thats what I want to find out. HELP any ideas.

[Olde Crone Holden]

"Formerly" on a birth certificate means maiden name. "Late" would mean a widow (or divorced, unlikely at this time). "Otherwise" or "Also known as" would mean she was known to people by that name, which wasn't necessarily the name she was born with.

Until very VERY recently, you didn't have to prove a thing to the Registrar and could say anything you wanted. No one would check.

Matbe Alice's MIDDLE name was Partington and the enumerator assumed it was her surname. Or maybe the parents just weren't married.

You haven't said what area we are looking at?

OC

[TrevorFranklin]

I would say that Alice was illegitimate?
Are they in the Bury area, as there is an Alice Partington listed on BMD 1838 (The 1841 census is not too accurate with ages, it often 'rounded up').
Bury June Qtr vol 21 170.
There is also another at exactly the same time, but listed as page 164.

[Pipeman]

Thankyou OLDE for the info. on reading Certificates but I'm not sure it helps me alot!! if "formally" does mean ' Maiden' name, why can't I find the former marriage!!
But if it is right that fits in with what Trevor that he has found a Birth for an Alice in Bury, That IS the Area I'm looking at. that was to a 'Grimshaw'!!
But I can't find a Hannah Grimshaw Marriage to a Partington??

I just seem to be going round in circles, and yes I know it doesn't say that researching is easy!!!

[Jessbowbag]

Deaths June 1838 is a Charles Partington, in Bury

On the IGI there is a Charles Partington marries a Hannah Partington 27 MAY 1836 Saint Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England. Maybe she married a cousin or something.

[TrevorFranklin]

Thankyou OLDE for the info. on reading Certificates but I'm not sure it helps me alot!! if "formally" does mean ' Maiden' name, why can't I find the former marriage!!
But if it is right that fits in with what Trevor that he has found a Birth for an Alice in Bury, That IS the Area I'm looking at. that was to a 'Grimshaw'!!
But I can't find a Hannah Grimshaw Marriage to a Partington??

I just seem to be going round in circles, and yes I know it doesn't say that researching is easy!!!

Where did Grimshaw suddenly come from, it was not mentioned in your original post?

[JudithM]

if "formally" does mean ' Maiden' name, why can't I find the former marriage!!

I just seem to be going round in circles, and yes I know it doesn't say that researching is easy!!!

As Old Crone said Formerly means maiden name therefore surely there ISN'T a former marriage to find. Your ancestor's birth cert shows that his mother was Hannah Hardman when he was born (if you haven't found the Hardman/Partington marriage they may of course have just been living as man and wife) and her maiden name was Hannah Partington.

[Pipeman]

Hi evryone and thanks for your input.
Trevor, no, I wasn't trying to confuse you. I looked for Alice's birth and came up with one having a Mum called Grimshaw. Then I looked for a marriage between Grimshaw and Partington and couln't find one. Thats where I was coming from. sorry.
Jess, I too saw that marriage but thought it must be a mistake, two Partingtons marring. I never thought of them being cousins! Therefore, I never looked for where Hannah's husband would have gone. But it does fit in with what Trevor said about not taking Alices age on the 41 Census as fact. Charlse could have died about the time Alice was born, 1838.
Judith, if you're right and Hannah never married John, for what ever reason, then it means there is little chance of finding out who John's parents were, because without a marriage certificate, there is no mention of John's father!!!!
Thanks again. This is what I like about this site, there are somany folk ready to help others, long may it last.

Back to the drawing board--------HELP!!!!!

[Olde Crone Holden]

Have you followed John and Hannah and all their children forward to death? Occasionally you get a relative living with the family, who helps to clarify things.

Also, if you can find a burial/headstone, that might have some information on it as well.

OC