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  • ideas for finding a birth cert

    firstly hello all, I'm new to the forum, and hope someone can help me find my elusive grandfathers birth cert , I gave up with him 5 years ago but thought I would try again

    every cert I send for has the wrong mother, and it's getting so frustraiting, I have tried different spellings of mckay and now need more ideas... so here goes..

    this is him...1901 census William Mckay 5 years old

    Address: 13, Clive Street, Toxteth Park

    MCKAY, Johanna Head Widow F 40 1861 Char Woman
    Whitehaven
    Cumberland

    MCKAY, Jane Daughter Single F 16 1885
    Liverpool
    Lancashire

    MCKAY, William Son Single M 5 1896
    Liverpool


    911 census
    Address: 34 Essex St Liverpool

    MCKAY, Johanna Head Widow F 54 1857 Laundry Washer Whitehaven Cumberland VIEW
    MCKAY, William Son Single M 17 1894 Dock Labourer Liverpool Lancs VIEW

  • #2
    Welcome to FTF

    I had a bit of a look on the LancashireBMD site ( http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk ) and used the Soundex option, looking for births registered in Toxteth Park ...
    1894 MACKIE William
    1896 MACKAY William W
    1896 MCKIE William J
    1898 MACKEY William J

    I couldn't see anything obvious on the Lancs OPC site: http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/

    Christine
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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    • #3
      there is a possible marriage, JOANNA Connell to a Samuel McKay, 1883, Toxteth. Also a possible remarriage, Johanna McKay in 1903.

      As to the birth of william, when you say the mother's name is wrong, what do you mean exactly? Are you specifying mother's name must be JOHANNA and being declined the certificate?

      OC

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      • #4
        thank you for replying so quickly, I have sent for all those certs Christine, none have the right mother, and the marriage you found Crone is the correct one, i have that cert, and there lies another mistery, Johannah states she is a widow in 1901 but I can not find a death cert for him, although she goes in and out of the workhouse he never goes in, so if he isn't dead why can't I find him on the census? I really don't think this family wan't to be found

        Samuels Father is Scotish and I would love to find out what part he was born

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        • #5
          Can you tell us what mother's names have been offered? And have you then found and eliminated those William McKays on the 1901 census or the GRO death index?

          There is always the possibility of a mistake in the GRO records.

          My other observation is that there is quite a discrepancy in ages. Two years is nothing for adults but childrens' ages tend to be a bit more accurate in my experience.

          Anne

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          • #6
            I have had all William Mckay's from 1894 -1898 checked for mother Johannah father Samuel, the National statistics said none fitted the criteria, wish I would have left the fathers name off the search now

            they also checked william James Mckie 8b 223 and william white Mackay 8b 241, again they say mother is not Johanna/joanna

            anne I agree with you on the age thing

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            • #7
              Have you found the family in 1891? Sorry, I don't have Ancestry access to look for myself.

              OC

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              • #8
                there is a death for a Sam McKay
                1884-Mar 1914 Leeds aged 30
                9B 621

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                • #9
                  was Sam a dental mechanic??

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Joy123 View Post
                    I have had all William Mckay's from 1894 -1898 checked for mother Johannah father Samuel, the National statistics said none fitted the criteria, wish I would have left the fathers name off the search now

                    they also checked william James Mckie 8b 223 and william white Mackay 8b 241, again they say mother is not Johanna/joanna
                    Unfortunately you are now left wondering if the GRO interpreted it correctly; or that Samuel wasn't his father.:(
                    I've sent for a cert with a check before but when they didn't send it (and refunded my £4) I was consumed with curiosity so I sent for it anyway. :( .... it was wrong!!! My point is, that I should have just blown the full £7 and made up my own mind. In your case it would be expensive but at least you could then elininate the 'other' William McKays from your list.

                    Anne

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Joy123 View Post
                      I have had all William Mckay's from 1894 -1898 checked for mother Johannah father Samuel, the National statistics said none fitted the criteria, wish I would have left the fathers name off the search now

                      they also checked william James Mckie 8b 223 and william white Mackay 8b 241, again they say mother is not Johanna/joanna
                      Usually "less is more" and people do change their names or put them in a different order.

                      Have you looked for the births on the Lancs BMD site and matched them up with the GRO births you found? Some of the earlier Lancashire births now have mother's maiden surname.
                      Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

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                      • #12
                        1891 census has Johanna in Toxteth Park workhouse with 3 children all destitute, I cant find her husband Samuel anywhere on this census

                        Joyce

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                        • #13
                          wow you lot are so quick, i love it.... Ann you read my mind with this quote

                          "Unfortunately you are now left wondering if the GRO interpreted it correctly; or that Samuel wasn't his father"

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                          • #14
                            are you discounting the death I found in 1914

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                            • #15
                              in 1911 it says William McKay was born in Liverpool Lancs as I'm not hot on the area could Birkenhead come under it ???
                              Dec 1897 8a 491

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                              • #16
                                Well, that's what I was getting round to saying, lol - Sam was not his father. There appears to be a big gap between the children's births, which always makes me suspicious.

                                If you order your certs through the Lancsbmd site, they will return ALL your money if the cert doesn't match your information AND they are more flexible about spellings etc. If the mother has spelled her name Joanna and you specify JoHanna, the GRO will not send out the cert - Lancsbmd will, or will phone you to ask if you want it.

                                Of course, if William IS illegitimate then his father's name won't be on the cert, so you will be none the wiser!

                                OC

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                                • #17
                                  Val

                                  Sam can't have been born in 1880 and married in 1883.

                                  OC

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                                  • #18
                                    sorry Val I should have said that Sam is the wrong age

                                    SAMUEL BURGESS MACKAY Pedigree
                                    Male

                                    Birth: 02 MAY 1856
                                    Christening: 25 MAY 1856 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

                                    Birkenhead is on the other side of the mersey Val, not far at all in this day and age, but a bit far in 1896, but I don't discount it, and thank you for that tip on Lancs BMD, I have never used them, now wondering how much it would cost for a blanket search of 5 years, thats if they do searches

                                    Joyce

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