Hawes of Walsham-le-Willows, Suffolk - what do you think??

[wulliam]

I need to clear my brain out - hence this detailed post...if you can see any light I'd be very grateful.

I have an ancestor Robert Hawes, who died in East Dereham in 1830 aged 86-88 years (depending on source) meaning he was born c1742-44. There is no sign of him apart from the four children (Mary, William, Ann, Sophia) he had with his wife Grace in East Dereham in the 1790s.

However, there is this from a newspaper in Suffolk:
1790, 1 Sep: Notice was given that a property and land was for sale in the parish. ‘A copyhold estate, late the property of the widow Hawes, deceased, consisting of a very good farmhouse, barn, stable etc. and about eight or nine acres of exceedingly good arable land now in the occupation of Mr. Edmund King.’ Also a notice appeared asking for a beneficiary to make contact. ‘Notice to Heir at Law: Mr John Hawes of Walsham le Willows, Suffolk having been absent for some years and being heir to part of the estate of the widow Hawes, deceased, he is desired to send his name and place of abode to Mr. Robert Hawes of East Dereham.’
[You can see this at http://www.walsham-le-willows.org/hi...rterlyreview/5 if you wish]

Walsham-le-Willows is just 25 miles from East Dereham.

I have assumed that Robert is executor to an as-yet unfound will for the widow (his mother?)...and that the John he is trying to find is a relative (brother?).

So I searched the extracted records on the IGI and found Robert Hawes christened 2 Sep 1744 to parents Thomas & Ann in Walsham-le-Willows. Looking good!

But then the problem...there were (at least) 9 other children (including 2 brothers John (christened 1749 & 1765)), including another Robert christened 11 Oct 1767. And I can't find any burial records online to help me out.

One thought that has occurred to me is that as the siblings (all born to Thomas & Ann on the IGI) have the following christening dates:
Robert (chr. 1744) John (46) Mary (49) William (53) Hannah (57) Thomas (62) James (64) John (65) Robert (67) William (69)
Is it possible that there were either 2 Thomas & Ann's on the go at the same time...or that Ann died, say about 1754, and he remarried another Ann...and they ended up using some names again even though the first children hadn't necessarily died.

I wonder whether any of you have any thoughts as to what I should do next to prove/disprove the link?

Thanks for reading!

[lisajj]

I think the best thing you can do is look at the actual parish records. I don't think everything ends up on the IGI so you maybe missing a link here. If you can't get to the relevent records office you can always put a research request on here and see if someone would do it for you. It is quite possible that he married another Ann, as I had an ancestor who married twice and both were called Elizabeth! As for the names of the children, it was really common to use the same names. I heard of a family who had 3 boys and 3 girls, all were alive and were called: William 1st, William 2nd, William 3rd, Mary 1st, Mary 2nd and Mary 3rd! So have a couple of boys called John wouldn't be that rare :-)

[Olde Crone Holden]

I agree, you really need the parish registers to sort this out. The burials may explain all. Nothing beats reading the events in chronological order in the parish register to make sense of what seems impossible.

If the IGI have filmed the relevant parish then you can view the film at your nearest LDS family history centre - address on their website.

OC

[wulliam]

I think I knew this - but thanks for encouraging me to do it properly! If I can make the connection then Robert may be my first 'gateway' ancestor - the Hawes family in Walsham goes back to about 1200!
I can dream!

Thanks again!

[Olde Crone Holden]

May not be all that much of a dream Wulliam...once I get my ancestors into a village around the 1700s I can usually go back several hundred years fairly fast and I find without exception that if it is the same surname, they are related.

OC

[maudarby]

Hi William
As you said in an earlier post there are no burial records online for Walsham le Willows for the years that you are interested in. NBI records start at 1813 & I have just checked on Findmypast & their coverage is the same.
Have you thought about joining the Suffolk Family History Society? The membership fee is £15/£17 depending on your age. http://www.suffolkfhs.co.uk/service.html
Once a member you can ask for a search of burial records for a very modest fee. Their coverage for Walsham le Willows is 1539-1909.
As to wills-- the widow Hawes may not have made a will but her husband may very well have done. If you haven't already done so give the Suffolk R O a ring & ask if they can look in the index for you at W le W bearing in mind that the widow's husband may have died many years before her. I have always found the staff at the R O very helpful. I contacted them only last year about a will & when one was found it was ordered for me & sent within a few days.
Moggie

[kiki1982]

If this is the same Thomas marrying two Anns (if he was widowed), then there should be two marriages, with Thomas's father the same, with two different Anns, and at least one which tells Thomas is a widower. It would seem strange to me that they would have recylcled names, certainly as the children were too small not to be in the care of the father. Unless he abandoned them, but why abandon your children if your wife has only died? Nevertheless, it is possible. If he did, then the parish must have forced him to support them, probably, so there must then be a poor law record for them.

Maybe there were two Tomases that were cousins.

Look for marriages?

[maudarby]

Hi William
Further to my post about the SFHS I see that they also have monumental inscriptions for Walsham le Willows & you could enquire about marriages but it does look as if these only start from 1754.
Moggie

[wulliam]

OC - that's what I'm hoping. I've been at this for about 7 years now (not that long really) and would be delighted to get one line a long way back! Thanks for the encouragement!

Moggie, thanks for your two replies. I have just emailed Suffolk RO - we'll see what they say. I may well join the FHS - but only once I'm sure there's a link!

Kiki - I'm starting to think that there were two sets of Thomas & Ann's. Or more likely, one Thomas with 2 Ann's. Thanks for your thoughts on the matter!

[wulliam]

OK, I've just received (and transcribed) the will of Thomas Hawes (probate granted in 1773). His wife was Ann, his executors were his sons John & Robert. Unfortunately the rest were just described as 'sons and daughters'. But it refers to his wife Ann having inherited under the will of John Baker...which makes me think that perhaps Ann was a Baker before she married.

I wonder whether some kind person with a FMP sub could do a quick search of Walsham-le-Willows (Suffolk) marriages to see if a Thomas Hawes married an Ann Baker in the mid-late 1700s? I'm sure those records are on there. They could, of course, have married in a different parish...

I think I may have to get the will of John Baker next! I am in the process of getting PRs to look at...so haven't ignored that piece of advice!

[kylejustin]

there is one marriage on fmp in suffolk during the 1700's or thomas hawes. he married an elizabeth.

[wulliam]

Thanks for that - I know from googling that Thomas Hawes was an incredibly common name...never mind!

[ploppy]

Hi William

I am also tracing a Hawes family from Walsham le Willows. I have also got back to Thomas and Ann. My husbands 4 x great grandfather was William Hawes b. 1769 to Thomas and Ann (one of 11 children but some with the same names). Like you I have not found any deaths for some of the children that have the same names but I admit I haven't had much chance to delve further on this side yet. I am hoping to get to the records office in Norfolk soon as well as the Suffolk one but not sure when that will happen at the moment.

I would love to hear from you to see if we can swap any information or help each other. As you say there is a Hawes family that goes back to the 1200's and it would be great to make a connection to that.

Look forward to hearing from you
Liane

[wulliam]

Hi William

I am also tracing a Hawes family from Walsham le Willows. I have also got back to Thomas and Ann. My husbands 4 x great grandfather was William Hawes b. 1769 to Thomas and Ann (one of 11 children but some with the same names). Like you I have not found any deaths for some of the children that have the same names but I admit I haven't had much chance to delve further on this side yet. I am hoping to get to the records office in Norfolk soon as well as the Suffolk one but not sure when that will happen at the moment.

I would love to hear from you to see if we can swap any information or help each other. As you say there is a Hawes family that goes back to the 1200's and it would be great to make a connection to that.

Look forward to hearing from you
Liane

Have just pm'd you!

[John Hargrave]

Hello. I have a ancestor named James Hawes of East Dereham, I have no further details except he had a daughter Sarah Jane Hawes,( born East Dereham 1806) who one child out of wedlock, Charles Hawes born 1831 in Long Sutton, Lincs?. She went on to marry a James Godlolt who died in 1839, had a son Levi and daughter Rosanna. Sarah Jane died in 1849.
Is this of any help to you?

[emvejay]

I not sure whether this info will help your research re Hawes/Baker Will. There was a marriage between a Thomas Hawes & Ann in Walsham le Willows who gave birth to two John's and two Robert's, one of which I believe was an ancestor of mine but I have not been able to establish whether the Ann was born a Baker. I have however found a baptism of an Ann Baker to a John & Ann Baker in Stowmarket in 1760. It is conceivable that she may have inheritted under the Will of her father. Does this help at all. emvejay

[wulliam]

Hi Emvejay,

this sounds very promising. Can you give me details of the marriage between Thomas Hawes and Ann in W-Le-W? Where did you find the record?
As for the baptism of Ann in 1760, 'my' Ann would have been born about 1705...so probably not her.

Looking forward to hearing from you!

John - sorry I missed your post until now...the names don't mean anything to me but will keep a note of them in case anything turns up.

[sutton]

dear john
Iknow its a long shot but I have just seen your post concerning sarah jane hawes she was my husbands ggreat grandmother ihave searched the records for east dereham without any luck and I wondered if you or any one can help shed some light I do have info I am willing to pass on
sutton

[Darksecretz]

dear john
Iknow its a long shot but I have just seen your post concerning sarah jane hawes she was my husbands ggreat grandmother ihave searched the records for east dereham without any luck and I wondered if you or any one can help shed some light I do have info I am willing to pass on
sutton

Hello Sutton, welcome to the forum!

John has not been onsite for some time, though if you click on his username on the left of the page you will get an option to send him a PM [private message] hopefully then you will be able to initiate contact with him.