Death Sentence for Larceny ????

[Guest]

I am pretty sure I have found my Samuel Keen born 1812 on Ancestry's criminal Records ,sentenced to Death in 1826 aged 15 for Larceny ?? I would not have thought that would be right??
Is there anywhere I could write to find out if its definitely him ?
Also how long after the Sentence would he have been executed.

[Peter Evans]

Val,

If you are surprised at the severity of the sentence then you will find plenty more like that on the Oldbaileyonline site. Transportation or the death sentence were very common for crimes of relatively low monetary value.

Peter

[Olde Crone Holden]

Yep, death for larceny of anything over the value of a shilling, or of livestock.

However, from about 1790 onwards, the death sentence was usually commuted to transportation for life, thus neatly solving the problem of the under-occupied dominions without losing face by being soft on crime!

OC

[Peter Evans]

Val,

As regards the delay in the execution of sentence I can tell you about a relative of mine at the other end of the century: he was found guilty of murder on the 18th May 1896 and was hanged at Newgate on the 9th June.

Peter

[Guest]

thanks Peter and OC its just that I've seen other larceny cases get much less sentences , it was a dwelling House so maybe people were inside???
Wonder if its on the oldbailey ??? mmmmmmmmmm

[Olde Crone Holden]

Oh yes, I think I have read somewhere that entering a dwelling house with intent to rob was a hanging offence, now you mention it.

My one claim to fame is a distant relative Mary Holden who was the last woman to be hung at Lancaster Castle in 1826(?). She was found guilty of murder and hung within a few days, certainly within a month of being found guilty.

However, if a sentence was reduced to transportation, often the prisoner was kept for YEARS on a prison ship before it sailed for the colonies.

OC

[Guest]

Who did she murder ???
I'm quite thrilled with this find but dont understand why his parents would want to name another son after him ???

[Olde Crone Holden]

Val

she poisoned her husband by putting arsenic in his tea!

Now I know it's not a laughing matter, but honestly, her defence was "I only put the arsenic in the pot, HE drank it himself"

Apart from my surprise that people drank tea for breakfast in 1826 (for some reason I didn't think it was a common household drink then) I was also quite surprised that anyone realised what she had done, as arsenic poisoning was very difficult to prove before about 1860, when a test was invented.

She was only young, in her early 20s and he was twice her age. I wonder what the real story was.

AS to your man, either way his parents would never see him again, so maybe they named another son after him to keep his memory alive?

OC

[Just Gillian]

Yep, death for larceny of anything over the value of a shilling, or of livestock.

However, from about 1790 onwards, the death sentence was usually commuted to transportation for life, thus neatly solving the problem of the under-occupied dominions without losing face by being soft on crime!

OC

I have one tried in Somerset for housebreaking in 1836 and sentenced to 14 years transportation.

There is no mention of what goods were stolen or of their value. So, would his sentence suggest that he might have been caught before he had a chance to steal anything, or alternatively that the value of the goods must have been less than 1s?

[naomiatt]

Hi - don't give me ideas OC!! ;D

Not sure how fit and able your person was Just Gillian, but boys/men were often transported for a really minor offence...they needed their manpower.

[Olde Crone Holden]

JG

Oh, I honestly don't know! Perhaps they were softening up a bit by 1836, lol. I do know that housebreaking was considered a far more serious offence than JUST theft, so perhaps there were mitigating circumstances - he was possibly in the company of others older than him, or something?

I was reading something just the other day, about a pickpocket in the 1850s, who was careful never to steal anything worth more than 40s(what? did he put it back in their pocket???) as over 40s value brought the death sentence.

I have also seen, cannot remember where but possibly the old bailey site - theft of handkerchief value 6d, transportation for life. They didn't mess about, the Laws were vicious, but possibly flexible too, according to whichever court tried the crime. In a book I was reading about Victorian poisoners, a ten year old servant girl poisoned her elderly mistress, because the girl wanted to go home to her parents, but her father had said she must stay with the old lady "until she dies". Even the child said the old lady was kind to her.

In what I consider to be a uniquely humane verdict, the girl was found guilty of murder, but her sentence was to be put into the care of her father, with whom she must remain fior the rest of her life. So the Law COULD be flexible if it wished.

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

Yes, Naomi has it - you will find after about 1830 that relatively few people were hung, but very many were transported.

OC

[Just Gillian]

He was 27 naomiatt and a pocket book maker according to a Bath directory a few years before, so he was probably young and fit enough to be useful in Van Diemens Land.

Strangely enough, his father was comparatively well off so I'd love to know how he ended up a housebreaker. He received a conditional pardon 8 years later and appears in an 1849 muster, but I lost track of him after that. He certainly wasn't in his father's 1854 will but whether that was because he was dead or simply in disgrace I'll probably never know.

Sadly, his brother, the only other remaining son, died in Sydney in May 1853. Word obviously took some time to reach Somerset because he was named as a beneficiary in the 1854 will.

OC - thanks.

I'm very surprised at the 10 year old poisoner's sentence!

[naomiatt]

Hi - found anything in here for him? http://trove.nla.gov.au/

[Just Gillian]

Thanks for the link naomiatt. That's where I found the Sydney death of his brother Peter Salmoni - the death notice conveniently giving the name and Bath address of his father.

Unfortunately, according to the ship's records at the time of transportation, Joseph Salmoni decided to change his name to Joseph Salmon so, apart from convict musters, pardons etc where his identity was unmistakeable, it hasn't been possible to link any other Joseph Salmon references to Joseph Salmoni.

On the plus side, googling his name means I've learned an awful lot about fish all over the world lol

[naomiatt]

....and arsenic! :D

[Just Gillian]

lolol True!!

[Guest]

what interesting stories ?? I am going to see if any records survive.

[Janet]

Val

It was probably not his first offence!! First offences were often treated with a spell in custody, but woe betide the person that dared to commit the offence a second time!

Janet

[Guest]

thanks Janet I will have another look at Ancestry maybe I missed some . I think the sentences in some cases much too harsh , but saying that look at today ? we are much too soft on crime.