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  • Latin scholars pretty please.

    Thank you very much for your kind efforts on the previous query. If possible can any one look at this apprenticeship binding from the early 18th century. Its the one starting Robert Acton (which looks hardly anything like Robert and then Acton which looks like Hecton!Latin.jpg

  • #2
    Any chance of putting a high-res version on Photobucket, Heather. My poor old eyes can't quite manage to read it.
    Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree with UJ, that a larger image would be much easier to deal with!

      I think it starts...
      Robtus Acton filius Walteri Acton ...
      in #### Salop Baronetti Defuncti pefuit (????) ...
      No it really isn't feasible without being able to see it more clearly.
      And did you get a better angle on the parts of the page nearer the binding?

      Christine
      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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      • #4
        I think thats the only angle we have Christine. Cousin paid the Company of Mercers to send him the image. Im not very good at resizing photos guys, I will have a go.
        Last edited by Heather Positive Thinker; 26-01-10, 23:19.

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        • #5
          Will this work?

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          • #6
            Was he from Aldenham?

            Attempt 2 (updated a bit)...
            Robtus Acton filuit (?) Walteri Acton mipde (???) Alsenham
            in #### Salop Baronetti Defuncti pefuit (????) se Apprentiem Joseph
            Brock de le Livery Coateseller pro Septem Annis a diedat
            horn p fen dat dict die et Anno

            Obbligatux Walterus Acton de...
            gen in durentis libris pro revitate
            Apprenticy
            Please note that these words do not seem all to be of Latin construction: my Latin is not advanced, but I can tell when something doesn't seem to have the right make-up for the language. I think that, if one of the Latin scholars has a look, they will be able to deduce what the words might really be from the meaning that they would expect to find.

            Christine
            Last edited by Christine in Herts; 27-01-10, 15:44.
            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Chris, yes, the ancestral home was Aldenham Hall in Shropshire. Many thanks for all your efforts. May be it would help if I told you that the eldest boy got the dosh and estate and then Sir Walter farmed out the younger boys to apprenticeships. This one (my direct ancestor) became a Mercer. We were hoping that the binding would give us more information about him as its very sketchy. Robert (senior) had a son Robert jnr who married below him apparently - again my line - and died on a merchant ship in 1723. The son of Robert, Charles, was left some money and property by his granny but the widow of Robert jnr Mary Wood was cast aside with just a shilling.
              Last edited by Heather Positive Thinker; 27-01-10, 12:51.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm not very good at reading these, but here are a couple of possible corrections and translations:

                Robtus Acton filius Walteri Acton mipde (???) Aldenham
                in com. Salop Baronetti Defuncti


                (Robert Acton son of Sir Walter Acton deceased (??) Aldenham in the county of Shropshire)

                pefuit (????) se Apprentiem Joseph
                Brock de le Livery fuateseller (? splits to >1 word?)


                pro Septem Annis

                (for 7 years)

                a diedat
                horn p fen dat


                dict die et Anno

                (the said day and year)

                Obbligatus Walterus Acton de...
                gen in durentis libris pro veritate
                Apprenticy

                Comment


                • #9
                  I had "filius" to start with, because that's what you'd expect, but the ending doesn't look much like an s, and the break of the two preceding letters looks more li,e u/n and then the i.

                  Still, I suspect that there are some "standard" abbreviations of the Latin which may be causing confusion here.

                  Christine
                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My Latin is practically non-existent but my Old English handwriting reading isn't bad & I'm pretty certain the letter after Livery is a 'c' as in coateseller. If you look above you'll see the same letter for cordwayner.
                    Glen

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                    • #11
                      Mines pretty non existent too but it almost seems like a mix of Latin and modern Italian doesnt it??

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                      • #12
                        Some of it is dog Latin I'm sure.

                        Just because a scribe could write prettily didn't mean he was a Latin scholar and would often just either blindly copy what he THOUGHT he saw on a previous document (sound familiar, eh?) or add some kind of Latin sounding ending to a word.

                        Vicars and Priests were also guilty of this. some of them had learned all their Latin by rote and could not actually speak or write grammatical Latin which fell outside the liturgy.

                        OC

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                        • #13
                          It doesnt look like we will be much the wiser from this sadly. Many thanks for all those who have kindly helped.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Oakum Picker View Post
                            My Latin is practically non-existent but my Old English handwriting reading isn't bad & I'm pretty certain the letter after Livery is a 'c' as in coateseller. If you look above you'll see the same letter for cordwayner.
                            Yes - that certainly makes sense! Thank you.

                            Christine
                            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Heather,

                              Sorry to come late to this. My reading is much the same as those of Christine and Mary:

                              Robtus Acton filius Walteri Acton ????? Aldenham
                              in com Salop Baronetti defuncti posuit se Apprentic Josephi(?)
                              Brock de le livery coatseller pro septem Annis ????
                              ???? ??? dat dict die et ????

                              Obligatus Walterus Acton ????
                              ??? in ducentis libris pro veritate (?)
                              Apprenticy

                              Robert Acton, son of Walter Acton ??? deceased baronet of Aldenham in the county of Shropshire placed himself in apprenticeship to Joseph Brock liveried (?) coatseller (?) for seven years ????? gives on the stated day and ???

                              Walter Acton bound ???? ???? in two hundred books ??? truth Apprenticeship

                              The first part is reasonably clear but there are too many uncertainties in the second part. I should perhaps make it clear that Walter is only bound in the apprenticeship not in the books.

                              Peter

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Many thanks Guys. Wonder how walter can be bound if he is deceased? Would the two hundred books actually be pounds? Similar word in latin, isnt it?

                                Many thanks for everyones efforts. Ill get back to cousin.

                                The Joseph Brock person would be the master the apprentice is assigned to. Coatseller doesnt sound as good as mercer does it!! May be its sort of "cloth merchant" and translates badly.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Heather Positive Thinker View Post
                                  Many thanks Guys. Wonder how walter can be bound if he is deceased? Would the two hundred books actually be pounds? Similar word in latin, isnt it?

                                  Many thanks for everyones efforts. Ill get back to cousin.

                                  The Joseph Brock person would be the master the apprentice is assigned to. Coatseller doesnt sound as good as mercer does it!! May be its sort of "cloth merchant" and translates badly.
                                  The libris is, indeed, probably "pounds".

                                  Pro veritate may mean the fee "for truth"

                                  Christine
                                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Heather,

                                    You are absolutely right that "libris" could be pounds but it does seem an enormous sum for the period even if it is a penalty.

                                    Peter

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