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Joe's father - Alfred Wells

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  • Joe's father - Alfred Wells

    Joe Wells married Alice Jessie Fraser on 16th December, 1910 at
    Folkestone Registry Office. Jessie's mother, Kate, and her brother
    Frederick, were the witnesses. Joe was aged 26, and his occupation
    was Auctioneer. His father is listed as Alfred Wells, also an
    Auctioneer.

    They had both given their addresses as 73 Peter Street, Folkestone,Kent.

    The 1911 census gives Joe and Jessie still living with Kate at the same address.
    Joe has given that he is an Auctioneers Clerk and that he was born in Paris
    so around 1885.

    Their known children were ;

    Josephine J (1911) born Elham, Doris (1912) born Dover, Abraham (1916) born Elham, Duncan Alfred (1921) born Elham, Alfred (1923) born Elham and Nanette A I (1928) born Elham

    ALL ARE DECEASED*** (see my later post - # 40)

    Joe's 2nd marriage to Aline (DECEASED) after Jessie died took place at the Registry Office Croydon on 23/6/1947. Joe has his age as 59 and profession is Mechanical Engineer. Father is Alfred Wells (deceased ) Sheffield Plate Manufacturer. The address is 10 Clyde Road, Croydon. Witnesses were Abraham and Doris.

    Joe died in Croydon General Hospital 1/11/1952. age 66, His address was 73 Alexandra Road, Addiscombe, Croydon.
    Abraham was informant.

    I have a few stumbling blocks –

    1)The family were told that Joe was related to Viner’s Cutlery (Viener/Wiener/Viner)
    Alfred was an Auctioneer in 1910 and later a Sheffield Plate Manufacturer.

    2)Joe was Jewish – I’ve a feeling that
    Joe’s father, Alfred, was probably called Abraham, hence one of Joe’s sons was named the same.
    Likewise, another son was named Alfred and Duncan’s middle name was Alfred.
    This could indicate that Alfred Wells senior was alive in 1910 and may have passed away
    prior to Sept quarter reg 1916.

    3)The Wells surname must have been something different..but I’m not sure what.
    If they were related to Viner’s Cutlery who were German…does that connect to Joe being
    born in Paris. There was also mention of Joe having more siblings including a sister
    and that his other name was Max.

    4)I’ve no idea where Joe was before he married, but he did serve in the Army in
    WW1 as he’d suffered from mustard gas poisoning.

    Any ideas welcome!
    Last edited by naomiatt; 31-01-10, 02:17. Reason: Possible living names removed.

  • #2
    I've just looked at the WW1 Medal Roll on the UK Archives site - if this is the right Joe, would it tell much more? Thanks.
    Description Medal card of Wells, Joe
    Corps Regiment No Rank
    Royal Engineers 289014 Pioneer
    Date 1914-1920

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Naomi

      That medal card is on Ancestry but it says very little else. All the info above plus that he was awarded the Victory and British War medals together with the number on the medal roll - and basically that's it!
      Jackie

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Jackie - had a feeling that would happen! ;-) Wonder if it's poss to get his WW1 records - if they're still around.

        Daft question maybe - Arthur Wells was a Sheffield Plate Manufacturer - does that imply he would have been living in the Sheffield area?

        Comment


        • #5
          Well the records for that Joe Wells (if its the right man) aren't on Ancestry under either pension or service records so it looks as though the originals haven't survived
          Jackie

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank's for looking Jackie.

            Does anyone reading this know if there's a database of Sheffield Plate Manufacturers??

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi

              looking at the family legends, the Viner family started their business in 1901

              Ludwig Viener had 10 children

              in 1881 living in Norwich, The sons began the business and Ruben(b.1907)(Hebrew) carried it on, He travelled alot, and I pinned him down on a Canadian border crossing, born in Newcastle. The Vieners were all living in Eccleshal Bierlow in 1911, busy with their business. in 1901 Ludwig Viener and two of his sons were auctioneers. Ive discounted all the sons, (not your Joe with a name change.)
              Emily (Ludwigs wife)died 1898 in Norwich, Ludwig remarried a 16 yr younger girl in 1900 name Sarah Levin (says born Germany, but the birthplaces on the previous censuses werent too accurate, they were contradictory)
              The only one I could find was 1891 (Sarah Levien abt 1869 Germany Servant Paddington ) but dont think its her.

              There were plenty of Levines in Norfolk, all into jewelry and antiquities, so they would have crossed paths no doubt, with auctioneers. There is a certain Reuben Levine(listed as married to a french woman), he looks looks cagey(like not living with the wife he married). There could be your connection, but ive run out of time, will look later on this evening

              mm

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by naomiatt View Post
                Daft question maybe - Arthur Wells was a Sheffield Plate Manufacturer - does that imply he would have been living in the Sheffield area?
                The "proper" Sheffield Plate was a thin sheet of silver beaten on to a sheet of copper by hand. When electroplating was invented, that form of silver plate was often called Sheffield Plate. I think he could have been in any of the big silverware areas, possibly Birmingham or London as well as Sheffield.
                Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Norfolk Levines were not mucking about, there were two of them!! so that idea is scrapped :(

                  Cant find any other candidate for the new wife Sarah, so the old fella married a young servant. ;)

                  still looking, I love a nice mystery

                  mary

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thank you Mary! it's definitely a good mystery! - can you by any chance see an Arthur Wells in 1901 or 1891 in the Sheffield area with a son called Joe or Joseph..born around 1885...If not Arthur, could be Abraham maybe or Adolph? or ?? - something that sounds more German, French or Jewish sounding?
                    There was at least one more sibling...poss a sister, but that's not proven. Joe must have been in touch with someone in the family or a family friend to know of his father's occupation when he had re-married...and he also knew that his father was deceased - the family were told that Joe came from Sheffield - wonder how he landed up in Kent....Also apologies to anyone reading this...I'd put Joe's father as Albert in the header...but it was Alfred Wells. I also have a photo of Joe if that's useful to anyone.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Uncle John View Post
                      The "proper" Sheffield Plate was a thin sheet of silver beaten on to a sheet of copper by hand. When electroplating was invented, that form of silver plate was often called Sheffield Plate. I think he could have been in any of the big silverware areas, possibly Birmingham or London as well as Sheffield.
                      Thanks Uncle John. There was talk that Joe came from Sheffield....but then as you've quite rightly said, could be Birmingham or London.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Joe was born in Paris - could a French born person fight in WW1 without being naturalised as British?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          " The Vieners were all living in Eccleshal Bierlow in 1911" - hmmm....I found an Arthur Wells there in the 1911..there are 200 or so more..
                          HOUSEHOLD WELLS ARTHUR M 1863 48 Ecclesall Bierlow Yorkshire West Riding

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Here I have an Idea, its all supposition, but it could tick a couple of boxes.

                            1881 Kensington, London
                            Samuel Wells(Restuarant Keeper) abt 1830 Head Welwyn, Hertfordshire,
                            Susan Wells abt 1831 Wife (Nat Brit Sub), France
                            Richard Wells abt 1862 Son (Nat Brit Sub), France
                            Clara Wells abt 1866 Daughter London, Middlesex,

                            and now two births the Weston Wells suggests that Clara isnt married, but puts the fathers surname as 2nd name, done very often by births where the parents are unmarried and father isnt able or unwilling to register the child


                            Name: Joseph Weston Wells
                            Year of Registration: 1885
                            Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
                            District: Poplar (To 1965)
                            County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
                            Volume: 1c
                            Page: 619

                            Name: Herbert Weston Wells
                            Year of Registration: 1888
                            Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
                            District: Fulham
                            County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
                            Volume: 1a
                            Page: 271

                            1901 Chelsea, London
                            Suzanne Wells(grandmother) abt 1831 French, France
                            Clara Weston(widow) abt 1865 Berkeley Sq, London,
                            Joseph Weston abt 1885 son Bromley, London,
                            Herbert Weston abt 1888 son Fulham, London,

                            Now Joe is short for Joseph, Wells is the surname, and Alfred is either the Father Alfred Weston, or just a figment of imagination.
                            France comes from the Grandma and Uncle, which is a good excuse for an absent father, or to stop any questions being asked by the registrar.

                            cant find this family in 1891

                            mary

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Mary - with the Viener family in 1911..what was Max's status? Joe had another name - which was also Max. This could mean that both these Max's were named after a deceased grandparent for example....or miraculously, Joe is that Max!! ;-) I've found a few marriages for a Max though, and a couple of Maxwells - so if that Max is married - Jeanette below could be the wife -
                              Marriages Mar 1909
                              MAYERS Jeanette Paddington
                              1a 135
                              VIENER Max Paddington
                              1a 135

                              VIENER Max SHAPSHUISKY Julia Liverpool, New Bethamedrash Synagogue Liverpool J1/2/87
                              SHAPSHINSKY Julia W.Derby
                              8b 1001

                              VIENER Max W. Derby
                              8b 1001
                              Marriages Dec 1907

                              Births Dec 1903
                              Viener Maxwell Leeds
                              9b 465

                              Deaths Dec 1903
                              Viener Maxwell 0 Leeds
                              9b 340


                              Interesting about the French Well's idea- hmm....and I think there could be a link with Ecclesall Bierlow as well...
                              Last edited by naomiatt; 27-01-10, 02:53.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Hi

                                I had suspected Max as well, but I found him together with his wife Jeanette and his brother Adolf and wife Dinah, on a ship in 1926, He gave his place of residence as Ireland and address as Sanford Rd Clonskeagh.Said he was a fancy goods merchant Adolfs adddress was Brother Emile Viener, 20 Collegate Crescent, Sheffield.Adolf was an electro plate manufacturer.
                                Max was calling himself Marks.....................(they were both living in EB on the 1911 census)

                                Here is the info for Jeanette.(b1888)

                                Name: Jeanette Viener
                                Arrival Date: 2 May 1926
                                Estimated birth year: abt 1888
                                Age: 38
                                Gender: Female
                                Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
                                Ethnicity/Race*/Nationality: Hebrew


                                Here are the Viener children as per 1891 census

                                Pauline Viener abt 1873
                                Henrietta Viener abt 1877
                                Willie Viener abt 1879
                                Bertha Viener abt 1880
                                Max Viener abt 1882
                                Adolph Viener abt 1884
                                Georgiana Viener abt 1886
                                Samuel L Viener abt 1886
                                Emil Viener abt 1888
                                Rosa Viener abt 1890


                                mm
                                Last edited by marymog; 27-01-10, 09:45.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Found the death of Max and Jeanette

                                  Max was listed twice in Hampstead 1970

                                  Max Viner dob.27 Mar 1881
                                  Marks Viner dob.27 Mar 1881

                                  Jeanette in 1963 Hampstead

                                  Jeanette Viner age 77

                                  I think that eliminates Max/Marks

                                  mm

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Thanks mm - yes, agree that eliminates Max/Marks.
                                    Do you think there could be a link to Ecclesall Bierlow?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Mm - do you have access to view French birth records on one of the major sites?
                                      As that family you found earlier were Wells from France, I wonder if Joe Wells shows as a birth there..or any Well's show...
                                      I have a photo of Joe and he definitely looks Parisian or German perhaps..

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Hi

                                        I will have a look round, must now go to bed its 2am here !!!!!

                                        catch you tomorrow

                                        mary

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