Lewisham PR's (marriage help needed)

[Yvette]

does anyone have access to these? i am trying to find out details of a marriage in 1887 and as the surname is White i could spend a fortune on unwanted certificates to find the one i want!

I would be grateful for any help that would enable me to narrow the search and order the right certificate.

Thanks

Yvette

***UPDATED 25/01/2019, see relevant post, thanks***

[WendyPusey]

They are on Ancestry.

If you give me the details I'll take a look.

[Yvette]

thanks Wendy. I'm trying to find out who Thomas John White married, he was born c1866 in Cornwall, but was living in Lewisham by the 1881 census and stayed in the area for the rest of his life except for a trip to Chile in 1896. I know he married someone called Kate but the details i have don't match what i can find and freebmd doesn't give any clues either. I thought i might have to order half a dozen certs to find him so appreciate any help.

I am hoping he is the one who married in 1887 ........

[Elaine ..Spain]

Is this your man in the 1891 census

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uki1891%2c&rank=0&gsfn=thomas&gsln=white&sx=&gsco=&s0RealGL=UKICen&f1=&f2=&f5=&f18=&rg_81004011__date=1866&rs_81004011__date=2&f14=cornwall&f15=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=UKICEN&fh=1&h=8406422&recoff=1+3

- in 1881 living in Lambeth, not Lewisham

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uki1881%2c&rank=0&gsfn=thomas&gsln=white&sx=&gsco=&s0RealGL=UKICen&f1=&f2=&f5=&f18=&rg_81004011__date=1866&rs_81004011__date=2&f14=cornwall&f15=&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=UKICEN&fh=2&h=20808530&recoff=1+3

If it's not the right one can you give the 1881 census ref.

[Yvette]

yes that's him Elaine

[Elaine ..Spain]

- why the Lewisham connection?

... sorry just seen her place of birth is Sydenham - does that come under Lewisham registration district?

[Elaine ..Spain]

There is this one in Woolwich but I am having trouble pairing up the other couple on the 1891 census

Marriages Jun 1890
Chelmick Agnes
MCDONALD Kate
POWNEY Alfred John C
WHITE Thomas
Woolwich 1d 1787

[WendyPusey]

Sorry can't help at moment, Ancestry is playing up for me. Won't load those records at the moment.

[Elaine ..Spain]

She seems to use the names Kate Roslie on two censuses, 1900 and 1901 - but I can't seem to match up a birth registration for these names in Sydenham about the right time.

[Yvette]

Sorry Elaine & Wendy, had to pop out.

The reason i was asking for the Lewisham lookup was because his full name of Thomas John White shows there for 1887, and as i know he worked in the area and lived there at one point. I had his wife down as Kate Rosalie Sayer from research done back in 2003, but i can't find any record for their marriage, or Kate's birth.

I have gone back to this family on starting up my tree again as it was the first one i did and i had some help but didn't keep source information at the time. I now know better than that and wanted to recheck everything i have and hopefully fill in a few holes.
On going through it again i can't find why i had her as a Sayer, except for the fact Thomas and KAte ran a greengrocers for most of their married life, and Kate Sayer's father owned a greengrocers in the same area and her age works for Sayer census returns as well as from her marriage to Thomas. There may have been a further reason for the tie-up but i can't find it at the moment, so it may have been wrong :-(

All other info i have on the family going back and forward is correct, just need to get this straight if possible.

Thanks for trying to help.

[Elaine ..Spain]

Is this the Kate Sayer you are referring to .

1881 census
Ancestry 1881 census
RG11; Piece: 737; Folio: 108; Page: 26;

- if so I think you can discount her because she is still living at home in 1891
Ancestry - 1891 census
RG12; Piece: 525; Folio 15; Page 23

[maudarby]

Hi Just looked on freeBMD & only 50% of marriages for the A/M/J qtr 1887 have been transcribed.
Moggie

[Yvette]

Eliane, i have found that as well...i had a print off of Samuel Sayer for 1891 that i found after going through all my records...took some time, lol, and i just noticed Kate still at home, so she definitely isn't 'my' Kate.

Going n the 1881, 91 and 1901 census Thomas lived at 81 Atlantic Road, Lambeth, then 21 Limerston Street, Chelsea, then 71 Mayall Road, Lambeth. He and Kate had their first child, Kate Edith on 15 July 1890, baptised 12 October 1890 at St Mary the Boltons, London , which means they must have married between the 1881 census and 1890.......i still can't find anything though even having taken the area out of the search, and no luck finding a birth record for a Kate Roslie/Rosalie ????? c 1867 Sydenham.

[Carolyn P]

I don't know if this is of any help to you but on Ancestry there is the baptism on 12/10/1890 of Kate Edith White dau of Thomas John and Kate Rosalie White at St Mary Boltons, West Brompton, borough of Kensington and Chelsea. Their address looks like 14 Limeston St and his occupation is Fruiterer.

[Carolyn P]

Sorry Yvette, I now see you already had that one!! They also had a Florence baptised at St Mary Boltons, on 9/10/1892, address was 5 Charing Cross Road, occupation Fruiterer. They seemed to get around a bit as there is also a Jessie White baptised at St John the Devine, Kennington, Borough of Lambeth, on 5/06/1895, address 22 Bellefield Road, Brixton, occupation Fruiterer, and also a Mahalah White Bapt 11/02/1903 at St Mary's Lambeth, address 71 Mayall Road, occupation Greengrocer. I did look for a marriage but couldn't see one.

[Stella]

Can I just butt in here. I lived in Mayall Road for a while way back in 1970. It is Brixton, Borough of Lambeth and Kennington is almost walking distance from Brixton.

[Carolyn P]

I have found the family living in Richmond, Surrey on the 1911 census. Kate says she has been married 23 years. Did you know about a son John born in Spain ?? If you would like a copy of the image, send me your e-mail address.

[Yvette]

Thanks Carolyn, i would definitely like to see the 1911 census, i will send you my email address.

As for the birth for Mahala, that is news to me, so she can't have survived childhood. I thought Florence was a new name as well until it occured to me it must have been Florence Maud....who was always know as Maude to the family. I was aware of Jessie and John and his unusual birthplace. John is my great-grandfather and was actually born in Ancud, Chile, but it often gets mistranscribed as Spain as Ancud was a Spanish province...or something like that.

We have no idea why John and Kate went all the way to Chile with Kate and Jessie, i have a record of the trip out in 1895, but nothing of the return journey, but they were back in the UK by the time they had Maude in 1901. I expect there is a Dorothy on the 1911, she had polio and was quite a character who died when i was a young child. I believe she was born c1906, but haven't managed to find her birth record yet.

John emigrated to Canada in 1921 with his wife, leaving his parents to raise his daughter as their own, she was my Nan. Bizarrely we have no idea who her mother was, i have the adoption certificate where Thomas and Kate adopted her formally when she turned 15, but have no idea what her real name was which she always wanted to know and didn't realise she had a right to find out! Sadlly she died before i got into genealogy and with the laws as they are i have no way of finding her real name.

A real shame as i would dearly love to know, i have no desire to trace her real mother, just to know Nan's 'real' name, for her, and my Dad who never knew any of his grandparents on either side (John when missing in Canada in the 1940's).

Stella, thanks for the info, it means it's not as odd as it first seemed for them to be moving between the areas.

[Carolyn P]

Have sent you an email Yvette.

[Yvette]

Thanks Carolyn, that's interesting to see.....it mentions 8 children born and 2 died, one of them must have been Florence Maud. When i first read your post about her and Mahala i assumed they died as children as i had no knowledge of them, then i amended it to say Florence was known as Maude all her life as i was aware of a Maude....but the dates don't work, so Maude must have been a separate daughter, born out by the entry in the 1911.

I'm not sure about Mahala though, or Mahalath as she shows at times as there is a marriage for her on FreeBMD to an Arthur Sturt.......that gives me pause for thought as i was told Jessie married an Arthur and a daughter Millie married a Mr Stewart by my Dad, who was a young child at the time. I wonder if Millie is actually Mahala......and Mr Stewart was actually Mr Sturt! They had a habit of using nicknames in the family, Dorothy was known as Dolly, Kate Edith as Kit and Maude as Maisie.......as if having the surname White didn't make them hard enough to trace, lol

Anyway, thanks for your help, it's certainly given me some new scope for looking around, even if i haven't solved the marriage of Thomas and Kate :-)