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The winner of WDWTYA 31st December 2009 is......

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  • The winner of WDWTYA 31st December 2009 is......

    Lindsay


    Well done Lindsay i hope you get some brickwalls knocked down.
    Jen

  • #2
    Thank you!

    I'm hoping to fill in some gaps in the info I have on my g-grandmother, Emma PEEL.

    Emma PEEL (born Bethnal Green 1864) allegedly married James NEWMAN (born Bethnal Green 1860) (no marriage found).
    Here they are in 1891:



    Class: RG12; Piece: 269; Folio 86; Page 9; GSU roll: 6095379
    James Newman head age 32 carman
    Emma Newman wife age 26
    Daniel Newman son age 9
    James Newman son age 9
    Charles Newman son age 6
    John Newman son age 4
    Louisa Newman dau (really mother) age 52

    I have Emma in every census 1871-1911, plus birth cert. Unfortunately James was dead before 1911 so Emma's 'years married' is blank.

    The family story I was told was that James was her second husband and that she had a son from her first marriage (I know family stories are notoriously unreliable but other stories from this branch have been 100% accurate so it seems worth considering). However, I now have 4 of her children's birth certs (getting desperate!) and all give her name as Newman, formerly Peel. I can't find her marrying anyone.

    Her son Daniel is also a mystery - I can't find a birth cert or baptism for him, or a census entry for 1901 (I've concentrated on him rather than his brother James as the name is more unusual). In 1911 he's living at the same address as Emma with his family. His marriage cert gives his father as James Newman.

    So, what I'd love to know is:
    1. Did Emma marry anyone at all?
    2. Birth record for Daniel Newman
    3. 1901 census entry for Daniel Newman

    Just to complicate things, there's another James and Emma Newman, similar ages, in Bethnal Green - Emma nee Witchalls. There must have been a family connection, I think, because my Emma's son Charles (born 1884) was born at 435 Bethnal Green Road - the same address Emma Witchalls gave when she married.

    Can anyone spot something I've missed??

    Comment


    • #3
      Do you know what Emma's parent's names were? Also father's occupation?
      Jackie

      Comment


      • #4
        Her parents were John Peel and Clara nee Johnson. John was usually a dock labourer.
        This is Emma with parents 1871:



        Class: RG10; Piece: 477; Folio: 60; Page: 14; GSU roll: 823369

        I'm pretty sure this is the right family - my grannie (Emma's only daughter) was named Clara Louisa after her two grandmothers.

        Comment


        • #5
          Possibly interesting?

          Marriages Jun 1882
          Collett Ellen Elizabeth Bethnal Green 1c 489
          GOSLING John Bethnal Green 1c 489
          NEWMAN James Bethnal Green 1c 489
          Popkins Ann Bethnal Green 1c 489
          WITCHALLS Emma Bethnal Green 1c 489

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry, just realised that's the marriage you've already found, Emma's father being Charles Witchalls.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks for looking, Mary. I've tripped over that James and Emma Newman at every turn - only last week I sent for what I thought must be my Emma's death cert only to find it was the other one...

              Comment


              • #8
                Have you managed to find a birth record for the son James? Its interesting that he has the same age as Daniel - were they twins or born very close together. It could be that Daniel is Emma's son from her first marriage or was born out of wedlock, which may be why you haven't found him (thinking aloud here).

                Was the husband married previously - he's 6 years older than her.
                Jackie

                Comment


                • #9
                  This is the other Emma with her parents in 1881, at 435 Bethnal Green Road:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here she is again with her parents in 1861:



                    And this is her parents' marriage (mistranscribed by FreeBMD but correct in the LMA records):

                    Marriages Sep 1858
                    Benjamin Emanuel Bethnal Gn 1c 665
                    Cooper Mary Ann Bethnal Gn 1c 665
                    King Ellen Bethnal Gn 1c 665
                    Whitehalls Charles Bethnal Green 1c 665



                    I've been tracing her backwards to see what the connection is with your Emma. As her mother was a Cooper, the connection was presumably on the Newman side.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This is James Newman with his parents in 1881:



                      and their marriage:

                      Marriages Mar 1860
                      Bellinger Louisa Shoreditch 1c 297
                      Bowker Harriett Shoreditch 1c 297
                      Newman James Shoreditch 1c 297
                      Peck Robert Henry Shoreditch 1c 297

                      His mother Louisa is living with him and Emma in 1891, misrecorded as "daughter".

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        my concern is why have Daniel and James shown as having the same age? Have you found the birth of James yet?
                        GWEN

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Night Owl View Post
                          Have you managed to find a birth record for the son James? Its interesting that he has the same age as Daniel - were they twins or born very close together. It could be that Daniel is Emma's son from her first marriage or was born out of wedlock, which may be why you haven't found him (thinking aloud here).

                          Was the husband married previously - he's 6 years older than her.
                          I haven't found Daniel's brother James Newmans' birth, Jackie - there are several possibilities, as James is a more common name than Daniel, and I've already spent a fortune on certs! For the same reason, I don't know whether James was married before. I know he's not married in 1881.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
                            This is James Newman with his parents in 1881:



                            and their marriage:

                            Marriages Mar 1860
                            Bellinger Louisa Shoreditch 1c 297
                            Bowker Harriett Shoreditch 1c 297
                            Newman James Shoreditch 1c 297
                            Peck Robert Henry Shoreditch 1c 297

                            His mother Louisa is living with him and Emma in 1891, misrecorded as "daughter".
                            Yes, that's the the right marriage. James is the only child they had as far as I can see. Mind you the marriage ended badly (that's why Louisa isn't with him in 1891) so perhaps it was effectively over early on.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
                              Here she is again with her parents in 1861:



                              And this is her parents' marriage (mistranscribed by FreeBMD but correct in the LMA records):

                              Marriages Sep 1858
                              Benjamin Emanuel Bethnal Gn 1c 665
                              Cooper Mary Ann Bethnal Gn 1c 665
                              King Ellen Bethnal Gn 1c 665
                              Whitehalls Charles Bethnal Green 1c 665



                              I've been tracing her backwards to see what the connection is with your Emma. As her mother was a Cooper, the connection was presumably on the Newman side.
                              Yes, I think it must have been. James Newman's grandfather Edward had 16 children including 7 boys who all seem to have survived. The other James's address at marriage was, if I remember rightly, Turk Street, which was where Edward lioved for many years.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                have you looked through the births and Bapt 1813 - 1906 there are several poss for James with parents James and Emma one poss is james born in 1880 but they are living at 143 Montague St and he is case maker? but there are more.
                                GWEN

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  James and Louisa Newman seem to have kept in close touch with their extended family.

                                  As you've probably already noticed, an Emma Newman (probably James Newman's niece) is a servant in the household of her aunt and uncle John Chandler and Emma (née Bellinger) in 1871, and their son Walter Chandler is living with James and Louisa Newman in 1881.

                                  A Richard Bellinger (presumably the son of one of Louisa's brothers) is living with Sarah Warren (Louisa's mother, who's remarried) and her son Thomas in 1871, and with Thomas Warren in 1881.

                                  But I still haven't found a connection to the Witchell family.
                                  Last edited by Mary from Italy; 01-01-10, 19:35.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    This is Daniel's marriage:

                                    Marriages Jun 1906
                                    Everitt Eleanor Bethnal G. 1c 339
                                    NEWMAN Daniel Bethnal G. 1c 339

                                    He's a carman, aged 23, and his father is given as James Newman, deceased, carman.

                                    Edit:

                                    Sorry, reading back over the thread I see you have his marriage already.
                                    Last edited by Mary from Italy; 01-01-10, 19:40.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      My goodness, you lot are quick! The Newman/Bellinger connections took me weeks to untangle!

                                      Gwen, I did try the LMA London baptisms but there was nothing that jumped out at me. Emma's hubby James was, as far as I know, always a carman (occasionally carter) - it seems to have been a family business over several generations.

                                      I'm in two minds about whether the Witchells connection is a red herring. I'm sure Emma Peel and Emma Witchell were different people, which was the thing that bothered me when I first started out, but where the connection is I don't know.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Looks like the details of Emma's life are going to remain a mystery for a bit longer, lol, but thanks to everyone for looking. It's good to know I haven't missed anything obvious!

                                        Can I ask if anyone can spot a missing couple in 1841? William and Mary Ann ANDERSON were at Crown Court, St George in the East, Middlesex in 1836, 1838, 1839 and Oct 1841 - but apparently not for the 1841 census. Can anyone find them anywhere?
                                        Should be:
                                        William ANDERSON possibly born Scotland about 1804, occupation usually labourer though also mariner and stevedore
                                        Mary Ann ANDERSON possibly born Ireland about 1806-1810
                                        Margaret ANDERSON born Liverpool about 1835
                                        Jane ANDERSON born St George in the East 1839.

                                        Comment

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