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  • Phillips

    I was wondering if someone could help, I have hit a brick wall and have been trying to get through it for the last 2 years, My great grandfather herman Frederick Phillips:
    Born 23/02/1886 st Pancras workhouse, mother Lizzie Phillips no fathers name
    I have found the birth record on Ancestry for the workhouse.

    Herman F Phillips married in 1905 to Rosina Collins and then married again in 1912 to Ellen E betton in Middlesex he has put his fathers name as Herman Phillips on his marriage certificates, he died in 1942 in Tottenham,

    He used the name Frederick Phillips in his WW1 pension records and the 1911 census but the problem I have is I can not find him in the 1891 or 1901 Census.
    Any help would be great

    Regards
    Julie

  • #2
    Hi - was he a tailor?
    There is a Herman Philips (one L) aged 18 on

    and a Frederick Philips (one L) aged 14
    and quite a few Frederick's with two L's...
    There is also a 54yr old Hermann (two N's) Phillips..Germany/British Subject
    living in St Geo Hanover Square

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello Julie

      welcome to FTF! I see from his first marriage that his fathers name was Herman Henrich? Phillips.. (it is very difficult to read, though has been transcribed as Henson) and he is deceased, have you looked for a death for the father? at all?
      Julie
      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

      .......I find dead people

      Comment


      • #4
        I no that on Herman F Phillips 1st marriage certificate it say's he was a confectioner in 1905 and by 1912 he was a saleman(i think for a tea company) thats what my dad was told.

        I have not searched for his fathers death but will do that now as I have never been able to work out his fathers middle name, thank you for doing that for me

        Comment


        • #5
          I presume you have seen the workhouse entry? for his birth, (do you have an ancestry sub?) as it is on there, but clearly states his name as HELMAN, though this could purely be the master of the workhouse not hearing what the mother was saying of course.
          Julie
          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

          .......I find dead people

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes I have seen that entry but to check his name I did ordered his birth certificate.
            My dad has just found a book that his dad wrote and it say's that Hermans mother was alice hermart but I can't understand why his birth certificate said his mother was Lizzie Phillips
            Last edited by julie1979; 27-11-09, 11:59. Reason: more info

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            • #7
              I think if it were me, it would be highly likely that the mother married, so I would look for marriages after 1886 in that area, (it might well be that his mother married and he is transcribed with his step-fathers name.) which is why you are having trouble finding him
              Julie
              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

              .......I find dead people

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by julie1979 View Post
                Yes I have seen that entry but to check his name I did ordered his birth certificate.
                My dad has just found a book that his dad wrote and it say's that Hermans mother was alice hermart but I can't understand why his birth certificate said his mother was Lizzie Phillips
                perhaps he means Hermans father? (ie his grandad)?
                Julie
                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                .......I find dead people

                Comment


                • #9
                  Update, I have now found hermans phillips baptism at st pancras 13/03/1886 and it states illegitimate child which I already guessed by the fact that there was know fathers name on birth certificate, and in the workhouse records his mother was entered as eliza philips (lizzie phillips on birth and baptism), she entered st pancras workhouse on 23/02/1886 (the day herman was born ) and was discharged 13/03/1886 she was boarding at 22 percy street at the time, I have checked the 1881 and 1891 census for that address and she is not there.
                  I have searched lots of marriage records and then searched the census 1891,1901 and can not seem to find a eliza philips, phillips who married and had a child called herman of frederick on the census, what records should I search now?

                  Any advise would be wonderful

                  Regards
                  Julie

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There's this one 1891

                    1891 Census
                    PHILLIPS, Frederick
                    KENSINGTON, London
                    RG12 piece 29 folio 166 page 9

                    birth St Marylebone...patient
                    Elaine

                    Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

                    http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
                    http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I really don't know if this is related but St Pancras

                      London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980
                      Name: Kate Lizzie Phillips
                      Record Type: Burial
                      Estimated Death Date: abt 1888
                      Burial Date: 7 Jul 1888
                      Age: 22
                      Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
                      Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras Parish Chapel
                      Borough: Camden
                      Register Type: Parish Register

                      I was looking at the older Herman, he has a daughter Alice but rummaging round to see if there was anything, I couldn't find Herman's marriage...it's bugging me!
                      Last edited by Elaine; 25-07-12, 23:15.
                      Elaine

                      Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

                      http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
                      http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thank you, I keep looking at this record, and think it is him but is there any records online for marylebone infirmary that would give me more information about him like his mothers name then I would be able to know for sure. I have looked at the poor law records for Kensington but have found nothing.

                        Thank you

                        Regards

                        Julie

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          my grandfather said that his father (herman frederick) only ever mentioned his mother once and the family are sure that he said his mother was Alice Hermart, but his birth,baptism and workhouse records state mother as lizzie, Eliza, it's so confusing and it has been bugging me and my dad for years.

                          The Burial record could be her as she was born about 1865.
                          Last edited by julie1979; 26-07-12, 10:45.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            if the birth records say she was eliza or variants i doubt alice is correct. but alice could be a previous or succeeding wife, or maybe even an ancestor further back. my family always claimed our george shaw was the son of a george and dorothy paul carew. except the birth clearly states mother as margaret, as do all the siblings. we still can't find a trace of dorothy, but we do wonder if she was mixed up, maybe a grandmother or further back.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As he was illegitimate perhaps Lizzie/Eliza couldn't care for him and he was fostered by Alice Hermart? Though that seems an unusual surname, to the extent I haven't found anyone in FreeBMD with that name.
                              Last edited by JudithM; 26-07-12, 11:13.
                              Judith passed away in October 2018

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                As he was illegitimate does that mean the father didn't want to know or had died before hermans birth or his parents were not married.
                                It states on his birth certificate that he was born 23/2/1886 in st pancras workhouse and that his mother, lizzie lived at 22 percy street which on the 1881 and 1891 census seems to be a boarding house/hotel, I did notice that on the 1881 census that there was a henrich klos, born germany and he was a cabinet maker boarding at 22 percy street, well on Herman's 1st marriage certificate is says hermans father was herman he***** phillips, carpenter (deceased) I could be clutching at straws but I did wonder if might have been his father, bit of a long shot

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I have been having a go at this Julie for the last few days and wonder if you could clarify a couple of things please.
                                  How do you know that the birth you have is him as it only gives the name Herman and not Herman Frederick?
                                  Also, is your grandfather descended from Herman and Rosina? The reason I ask is because they don't appear to have a son in 1911 and Rosina appears to die in Dec 1911. So did she have a son between the census and her death?
                                  Herman and Elizabeth Belton don't appear to have had any children.

                                  Also, I don't believe that you are just clutching at straws by looking for a Herman H with a different surname, as I have been working on a similar line. If he was illigitimate then there is a good chance that his fathers name wasn't Phillips but he would put that on the marriage certs. The fact that he always states Carpenter though might be an indication that he was aware of his fathers existance.
                                  Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    p.s. Sorry, just realised that although it comes up as Belton it is actually Belton and they appear to have 2 sons. Is this the line that you are following please?
                                    Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It all started when my dad gave me Herman Frederick Phillips WW1 pension records which stated his date of birth as 23/2/1886 and his name on them was Frederick Phillips, he then gave me Herman F Phillips 2nd marriage certificate (Ellen Elizabeth betton )which states his name as Herman Frederick Phillips, the family didn't know about his first marriage until I found it in 1905 to Rosina collins they had 1 child called caroline Rosina Phillips b 1906 but she died aged 16 in barnet in 1923 ,and the name on marriage certificate Herman Frederick Phillips, I then found a birth for a Herman Phillips and when I received the certificate the date of birth matched the one on the WW1 pension records, I then found his death in 1942 East Tottenham again Herman Frederick Phillips.

                                      Herman F phillips and Ellen E betton had 4 children,
                                      Florence Ellen Margaret Phillips b 1912
                                      Leonard Sidney Phillips b 1916 (my Grandfather )
                                      Walter Douglas Phillips b 1920
                                      Doris Irene Phillips b 21 dec 1921

                                      I hope this helps

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Thank you Julie It does look like the right birth then.
                                        Well I thought that Henrich Klos that you found sounded like a good bet, so I have been trying to find him coming into this country but no luck so far I'm afraid. I wonder if someone else might have more luck. You have a real puzzler here but I will try to think of something else to try.
                                        Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 26-07-12, 22:11.
                                        Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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