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  • Identifying a Crest

    This question has been raised on another forum and I wonder if anyone here is able to help please?

    Someone wants to identify the family this crest relates to:
    lion passant (ie the lion is looking to the left) with a crown above its head. The crown has 3 stars above it and a series of small circles on the edge of the crown. The lion has its mouth opened and tongue showing and a paw on a small shield with a cross ie church cross image. The lion is standing on a straight spiral pole.
    Further description -
    coronet crown - the actual band looks as if it has 6 stones or circles in the band - above it 3 stars - 1 star either side which is 4 pointed but 2 points at the top an 2 at the bottom - star in the middle is 6 points - 3 on the top an 3 on the bottom. So not a true star as we would say, reminds me of how a child might draw a star. The ones either side remind me of an insect shape wings.
    Underneath is a lion "passant"
    the lion is looking to the left (dexter) - has 3 legs on the ground and 1 leg raised and bent over a shield with a cross in the middle. The cross is like one drawn as the cross of jesus. it doesn't touch the outer line of the shield, rather the cross is in the middle of the shield which is pointed . The shield is lying to the right under the left leg and the point / bottom of the shield is almost touching the lion's right leg.

    The lion's tail is up in the air with the end curved over its bottom and the end
    of the tail flicked over back over its bottom. The end of the tail looks like a snake's head with the mouth open.

    The lion's mouth is open with the tongue straight out of its mouth looking to the left (dexter)

    The lion and shield is lying on a "wreath" which is long and twisted suggesting maybe different colours - similar to a barber's pole desgin.

    Any suggestions will be gratefully received. :smilee:

  • #2
    Hi Jeeps and welcome to FTF.

    Hardly dare ask this after your comprehensive description, but is it possible for you to put a photo of the shield on here?

    Also, can you say in what context the shield has been found? At the moment, it is sounding more like a corporation crest than a family crest, lol! Are there no words on it?

    OC

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello OC and thanks for your response and welcome. I hadn't realised I'd not made any posts before - a bit cheeky of me asking a question before introducing myself! :emb:

      I know nothing personally of this crest, the information is coming from the person in whose possession it is. Apparently it's on a gilded plate "The plate has a beaded edge and then another pattern around the plate edge - looks like a leaf or a safety pin closed at one end but with the bottom missing." It's been in the owner's family for about 40 years but is not a family piece. The owner tried to take a photo of it but it did not come out very well. I would be surprised if there were any words as she has been so comprehensive with her descripton, as you say. She does know that it was made in 1864.

      Clear as mud? ;)

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm no heraldry expert, but I do know a few words because of their similarity to French &/or Latin.

        "passant" means "passing" - i.e. walking - so I thought that that meant standing on all four legs and moving along.
        "dexter" means "right" (linked to the handist word "dexterous" for having skilful hands, capable of complex tasks) - opposite of "sinister" = "left" (notice that the linked English word is again, "handist" in attributing negative attributes to left-handedness!)

        The series of small circles near the crown - if they're on top and potentially attached, then they are indicative of rank: so many for a baron, so many for an earl, so many for a duke - you'd have to look that up.
        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

        Comment


        • #5
          This describes heraldic coronets:
          Coronet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          It indicates that six "pearls" indicate a baron.

          Christine
          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

          Comment


          • #6
            This is about heraldic stars:
            Star (symbol) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

            The ones you describe seem unusual - unless your nobleman is Jewish, of course? (The six-pointed one being largely linked with Jewish traditions.)

            Christine
            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

            Comment


            • #7
              This is a picture of heraldic lions, with associated names (including passant):


              This is Wikipedia again - on heraldic lions:
              Lion (heraldry) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              Christine
              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

              Comment


              • #8
                The colour of the cross may matter - as would the field-colour of the shield... in fact, all the colours!

                I think that you may be able to track it if you google the correct combinations of heraldic words - but you'll need to include the heraldic colour ("tincture") names, and have the words in the right order (in inverted commas to force the correct combinations).
                e.g. "lion passant gules" (red) or "lion passant or" (yellow/gold) or "lion passant argent" (white/silver) or "lion passant azure" (blue) or "lion passant vert" (green) ...



                From the earlier post, you'll see that a star is called a "mullet" or an "estoile" (if it has wavy arms).

                Christine
                Last edited by Christine in Herts; 07-11-09, 16:44.
                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Christine, this is absolutely fascinating; thank you so much for your hard work. I shall pass the information over. :smilee:

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                  • #10
                    Is there anything I can help you with? I have the World Ancestry sub and can usually find my way around most of the free genealogy sites. I'm in a remote part of Scotland so all my research is done online unfortunately.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      That's a kind offer, Jeeps... and I hadn't spotted that you hadn't made many posts (or not many that survive, anyway) so I also wish you Welcome!

                      I won't encourage you to break your T&C for your World Ancestry sub, but I may well ask for an occasional hint, which I can follow up a my local library: i.e. to find out whether or not a record is worth the trek! I have UK Ancestry, so can get at a lot of stuff.

                      Christine
                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                      • #12
                        Ancestry must be watching - I've just had an email saying my sub is due. :Big Grin:

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jeeps View Post
                          Ancestry must be watching - I've just had an email saying my sub is due. :Big Grin:
                          Then do take the time to run a search of the forum for Ancestry Subscription threads. You may find some useful hints to minimise the cost!

                          Christine
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                          • #14
                            Good thought, thank you. :smilee:

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