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Any ideas? Photos of debutantes ca 1908-1919

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  • Any ideas? Photos of debutantes ca 1908-1919

    I had a quick look in the Wiki, and "debutante(s)" didn't bring up any hits.

    I think it's quite possible that my niece's paternal grandmother (Aileen Sophia MARKS, b Nov 1892, m Oct 1919) could have been presented at court in the early C20th. I'd have thought that there would have been photos for such an Occasion. I've failed, miserably, to persuade her elder brother that it would be worth trying to root out the cache of family photos hidden in a box, somewhere in his roof on the off-chance there's something useful there (it's hard to get too cross: I'm not a model of tidiness, myself!). Now I'm trying some lateral thinking.

    I think there's a faint chance of something at the synagogue where Aileen was married, but haven't been able to follow that up yet.

    The reason I thought the debutante idea plausible was this notice in The Times, Saturday, Feb 08, 1913; pg. 12; Issue 40130:
    Their Majesties' Court.
    Ceremony At Buckingham Palace.
    ..."The General Circle" "The following were also summoned to attend, some of whom were unable to obey their majesties' command...
    Messieurs... Albert Morris Marks,
    Mesdames ....Albert Morris Marks.

    Aileen's father, Albert, died in Sep 1914, so she'd have lost at least 'season' there, I imagine, for mourning, and I'm not sure what happened during WW1. I think there was a gap until about 1922, from something I read in a Google hit.

    Christine
    PS - The reason I am particular interested in getting a photo is to make my niece a family-tree wedding card (as I did for her cousins) in time for her wedding next June (2010). It's easy enough getting stuff for my sister's side (i.e. my own tree), but much harder to get material for her late father's side - especially as he was somewhat older than my sister.
    *************
    EDIT: With Moggie's assistance (see below), the likely date is Feb 1913.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    In this context, researching: FRIEDMAN/FREEMAN (England, Oz, Pikallin in Lithuania), MARKS (England, Oz, NZ, Himbach-Limeshain in Germany) STORCH (Himbach-Limeshain in Germany), COHEN, JACOBS JONES, BENJAMIN, GOLDSMID (London, England), & GOLDBERG (Lithuania)
    Last edited by Christine in Herts; 24-10-09, 15:29.
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

  • #2
    Hi Christine
    Aileen is listed without her middle name in column 3
    Moggie

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you, Moggie!

      I hadn't spotted that. That must have been her Presentation occasion.

      That will narrow down the photo hunt significantly!

      Christine
      Last edited by Christine in Herts; 24-10-09, 15:26.
      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

      Comment


      • #4
        I remember that Debs always had their photos in the Tatler.

        OC

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
          I remember that Debs always had their photos in the Tatler.

          OC
          I had a feeling there was something like that. Thank you.

          ... now to go exploring...

          Christine

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          In this context, researching: FRIEDMAN/FREEMAN (England, Oz, Pikallin in Lithuania), MARKS (England, Oz, NZ, Himbach-Limeshain in Germany) STORCH (Himbach-Limeshain in Germany), COHEN, JACOBS JONES, BENJAMIN, GOLDSMID (London, England), & GOLDBERG (Lithuania)
          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

          Comment


          • #6
            ...and often The Horse and Hounds, and The Lady, lol!

            OC

            EDIT - (durh) - the Times used to print a Social Diary ?)which included Debs Balls Parties and Picnics.
            Last edited by Olde Crone Holden; 24-10-09, 22:17. Reason: Memory loss

            Comment


            • #7
              Thank you, OC

              I have followed up on your additional ideas. Just have to wait and see what (if anything) comes of it. It has to be worth asking, even if the answer is "no".

              I think the Social Diary in The Times has tended to be text-only, and not much different from the Court Circular - which is where the initial info comes from.

              Christine
              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

              Comment


              • #8
                Oh yes, sorry, I forgot you were after photos!

                (But the Balls Parties and Picnics might give you a date to look at for photos?)

                I am exceedingly cross that I was born to such humble parents and missed out on being a Deb - I would have been in my element I'm sure.

                OC

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Christine - Wonder if there is something in the Jewish Chronicle Archives?
                  The Jewish Chronicle Archives
                  Naomi

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by naomiatt View Post
                    Hi Christine - Wonder if there is something in the Jewish Chronicle Archives?
                    The Jewish Chronicle Archives
                    Naomi
                    Thank you, Naomi.

                    Now why didn't I think of that! I think I may have tried putting in Aileen's name, but will experiment a bit. "Aileen" is sufficiently rare, that one suspects OCR might not pick it up so readily.

                    Christine
                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                      Thank you, Naomi.

                      Now why didn't I think of that! I think I may have tried putting in Aileen's name, but will experiment a bit. "Aileen" is sufficiently rare, that one suspects OCR might not pick it up so readily.

                      Christine
                      Hi - I know it's a pain, but even just using Marks might bring something up for you. I had a quick look at the JGen SIG message archives and put in 'debutante' but nothing came up.
                      Naomi

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by naomiatt View Post
                        Hi - I know it's a pain, but even just using Marks might bring something up for you. I had a quick look at the JGen SIG message archives and put in 'debutante' but nothing came up.
                        Naomi
                        Thanks, again!

                        I've made a start. I put in Marks and court but confined it to 1913. I think that makes it a bit more manageable!

                        Christine

                        PS - Did the MARKS family mentioned in the Levien-Thompson thread have any connection to Amherst Rd?
                        AUGUST 15 1913 (Page:2/3): "...MARKS.On the 11th of August, at 282,Amhorst road, N., Catherine, aged 7 mooths, the beloved daaghter of Mr. andMrs. M. Marks. May hex dear soul rest in peace. ..."
                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          have you tried National Portrait gallery, they have fair few of society photographers work, such as Madam Yevonde and Cecil Beaton (they would have been a bit later than you are looking for) they may have earlier in there archives

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mikeg13 View Post
                            have you tried National Portrait gallery, they have fair few of society photographers work, such as Madam Yevonde and Cecil Beaton (they would have been a bit later than you are looking for) they may have earlier in there archives
                            Thanks, Mike

                            I hadn't thought of that, at all!

                            ... off to do some more exploring...

                            Christine
                            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Christine

                              My OH says that 'the' Jewish photographer was 'Boris', just known as that.

                              He found a photo of his aunt and uncle, taken at their wedding c.1930, in the NA online catalogue.

                              Might be a bit late for you but worth a try?

                              Chris
                              Avatar....My darling mum, Irene June Robinson nee Pearson 1931-2019.

                              'Take nothing on its looks, take everything on evidence. There is no better rule' Charles Dickens, Great Expectations.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Thank you, Chris - another useful hint to follow up!

                                Christine

                                PS - did some googling and found this link: Jewish East End of London - Boris Bennett
                                It looks as if Boris was a bit late for my purposes. But thank you for the idea - it may yet trigger others.
                                Last edited by Christine in Herts; 25-10-09, 13:19.
                                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                                  Thanks, again!

                                  I've made a start. I put in Marks and court but confined it to 1913. I think that makes it a bit more manageable!

                                  Christine

                                  PS - Did the MARKS family mentioned in the Levien-Thompson thread have any connection to Amherst Rd?
                                  AUGUST 15 1913 (Page:2/3): "...MARKS.On the 11th of August, at 282,Amhorst road, N., Catherine, aged 7 mooths, the beloved daaghter of Mr. andMrs. M. Marks. May hex dear soul rest in peace. ..."
                                  Hi - I have Phillip Marks that I mentioned to you but that was in 1927.
                                  I used to live near Amhurst Rd.:smilee: Looked at the LT thread - yes, might be something.
                                  Mr. Morris Marks, of 4, Navarino Road, Dalston Dec 1905 and Rachel Levien, married Morris Marks in 1886. Dalston's not too far from Amhurst Park, Amhurst Rd and Stamford Hill. Could they also be connected to your Marks? I saw this for Catherine - Births Mar 1913
                                  Marks Catherine Hernstater Hackney 1b 751 Marks Deaths Sep 1913 Catherine 0 Hackney 1b 380
                                  Naomi ; -)
                                  Last edited by naomiatt; 26-10-09, 05:41.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                                    Thank you, Chris - another useful hint to follow up!

                                    Christine

                                    PS - did some googling and found this link: Jewish East End of London - Boris Bennett
                                    It looks as if Boris was a bit late for my purposes. But thank you for the idea - it may yet trigger others.
                                    Hi Jill (there's photos of Boris in this) and Christine - Besides 'Boris' there might be something in here, or you could e mail them; Photographic archive - The Jewish Museum London also http://eastlondonhistory.com/categor...photographers/
                                    Last edited by naomiatt; 26-10-09, 05:16.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Had this back from Horse & Hounds to day:
                                      Thank you for your email. Unfortunately our archives are not open to the public.
                                      At least they troubled to reply.

                                      Christine
                                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by naomiatt View Post
                                        Hi - I have Phillip Marks that I mentioned to you but that was in 1927.
                                        I used to live near Amhurst Rd.:smilee: Looked at the LT thread - yes, might be something.
                                        Mr. Morris Marks, of 4, Navarino Road, Dalston Dec 1905 and Rachel Levien, married Morris Marks in 1886. Dalston's not too far from Amhurst Park, Amhurst Rd and Stamford Hill. Could they also be connected to your Marks? I saw this for Catherine - Births Mar 1913
                                        Marks Catherine Hernstater Hackney 1b 751 Marks Deaths Sep 1913 Catherine 0 Hackney 1b 380
                                        Naomi ; -)
                                        I don't think there's an immediate connection (but am wary of outright denial!). my niece's Morris MARKS was to & fro NZ and Australia by then, and married to Elizabeth. In UK, he wrote a letter from his son's address in Kensington ca 1906.

                                        Christine
                                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                        Comment

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