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  • Is Charles Wayman dead?

    Back to my Charles Wayman - sorry :emb:.

    I still haven't been able to connect Charles Wayman to my Charles Hemmings but I now have new information thanks to the LMA.

    I'll recap what we know.

    Charles Wayman is born in Histon, Cambridgeshire in c1857 to Elijah Wayman and Emma Hemmings
    Throughout the censuses, Charles is a Brick layer
    Charles marries Sarah Carter in 1877 and they have 6 children -

    Charles b.1877 Bethnal Green
    Emma Louisa b.1881 Bethnal Green
    Frederick Walter b.1883 Mile End
    Elijah John b.1887 Mile End
    Helen Alice b.1890 Mile End
    Mary Ann C b.1890 Bethnal Green

    I have them on all the censuses up to 1891.
    In the 1891 census Charles, Sarah and co are living in Jupps Road, Mile End under the name Weymouth
    Charles' wife Sarah dies in 1892 of TB, Charles was present at the death.



    Charles Hemmings/Emmings appears on the 15th Oct 1893 in Battersea marrying my Great Great Gran Alice Galley. His father is Elijah Emmings - Gentleman and Charles is a bricklayer.
    They then have two children, Martha Caroline and Henry (although Henry wasn't registered afaik)
    Charles, Alice, Henry and Martha are together on the 1901 census, Charles is a bricklayer, aged 40, born in London.

    Now here's the new info:

    Mary Ann Wayman marries John Riddlesdale in April 1899. Father is listed as Charles Wayman - Labourer
    Emma Louise Wayman marries Horace Sylvester in August 1901. Father is listed as Charles Wayman (Deceased)
    Frederick Walter Wayman marries Hilder Sylvester in December 1904. Father is listed as Charles Wayman Bricklayer (deceased)

    So, given that Emma and Fred are under the impression Charles is dead, can anyone find his death between 1892 and 1901? If not, is there any other way of confirming the two men are the same apart from digging up Elijah and doing a DNA test?

    Also,

    Below are the two marriage cert signatures. I'd like your thoughts on these too. Firstly, did the groom always fill in this part, if yes were they written by the same hand in your opinion?

    Hail Spode!

  • #2
    Hi,
    Re the marriage cert for Charles & Alice - What age and marital status are given for Charles, please?

    Jay
    Janet in Yorkshire



    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

    Comment


    • #3
      It says he's a bachelor aged 33

      Cheers
      Hail Spode!

      Comment


      • #4
        At first sight, the signatures look different, but...
        the slope's about the same
        the a, m and n are similar for shape and joining-strokes
        C is similar

        but the loop on the g isn't like the downstroke of the y.

        I think it's not impossible, but there's room for doubt.

        Christine
        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

        Comment


        • #5
          Just to stir things up...

          I'm not on the right computer to check the image, but, in 1911, at 47 Hope St, Battersea:
          HEMMING Charles, head, 49, labourer, b Cambridge
          HEMMING Alice, wife, 37, Portsmouth (actually "Partmouth")
          HEMMING Henry George, 16, jointen mute, b Clapham (or "Claphan"!)
          HEMMING Caroline M Arthur [don't you love that!], 12, b Battersea.

          Christine
          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks for looking. I'm not sure about the signatures either. I think I'll need more samples of both men's writing really.

            Hopefully the 1911 census entry you've found will have been filled out by my Charles but at the moment I'm subscribed to Ancestry not FMP so I cant see the pages :( also I dont have any writing of Charles Wayman. Can you think of somewhere I might look to find a sample?

            You'd think the transcriber would use a little common sense and work out it was Marther! Also what's a jointen mute?

            Cheers
            Last edited by guybrush; 12-10-09, 22:24.
            Hail Spode!

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi - have you found Elijah's death info?
              Hard call with the writing and as Christine said, there's room for doubt.
              The c and y are different...and the m....but the ar in Sarah, Carter and Charles could be the same person.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi,
                There is a death on FreeBMD for a Charles Hemming aged 65 in Romford in Jun 1922. This woild give him a birth year of 1857.

                Jun 1922 Romford vol 4a page 425

                Emeltee

                Comment


                • #9
                  Elijah died in 1910 aged 78 in Bethnal Green.

                  Charles Hemmings was alive for Henry's marriage in 1920 but I haven't been able to find his death.

                  The death in Romford is possible but I dont know where Charles and Alice were living in 1920s. Henry was living in Fulham on his WW1 service record.
                  Hail Spode!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi - have you found Alice's death details? Did she have a middle name? Might be buried in the same place.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I haven't actually, but Alice was a lot younger than Charles and lived until round the 1950s. I dont really need to find Charles Hemmings' death though as I dont think that's going to help me much. If Charles Wayman isn't Charles Hemmings then Charles Wayman died between 1892 and 1899 but I cannot find a death.
                      Hail Spode!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There's this (b c 1862, per the registration) - not sure if you've checked on him:

                        Charles Whyman / 1893q4 / age 31 / Fulham

                        Christine
                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Otherwise, I'd suggest you watch out for updates to the LMA stuff.

                          If the initial W(ayman) has been mistranscribed either by Ancestry, or by GRO at the initial stages, then you won't find the death easily.

                          Christine
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hmm, thanks. I hadn't found that one before. However, the Waymans were in Mile End, the Hemming's were in Fulham but I suppose it's not impossible.

                            I really think we're looking for something that isn't there and the two men are the same. I'll probably send off for all possible death certs when I get a bit of money just to discount them though.

                            Thanks for looking
                            Hail Spode!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Given that 1911 info, I think they're probably the same - too many coincidences, otherwise. Not impossible - just very unlikely for them not to be the same person.

                              Incidentally, "jointen mute" looks as if it's probably "Jointers mate" - and may really be an expansion of the "labourer" (for the Government) occupation for Charles, not Henry.

                              The 17-year marriage had been blessed with four children of whom 2 had died before 1911.

                              Christine
                              Last edited by Christine in Herts; 14-10-09, 22:13.
                              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Oooh, thanks for the info Christine!!

                                I haven't found any other registered births but as Henry doesn't seems to have been registered then I doubt I'll ever find them. Does the 1911 census mention whether there were previous marriages or anything?

                                Cheers

                                Guybrush
                                Hail Spode!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by guybrush View Post
                                  Oooh, thanks for the info Christine!!

                                  I haven't found any other registered births but as Henry doesn't seems to have been registered then I doubt I'll ever find them. Does the 1911 census mention whether there were previous marriages or anything?

                                  Cheers

                                  Guybrush
                                  No

                                  1911 is intended to show how long the current wife has been married to the husband, and how many children born to taht marriage, of whom how many alive and died.

                                  Sometimes it gets put in the wrong line. Sometimes it gets entered, even for widow(er)s - which is a bonus for us, of course!

                                  Christine
                                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    oh ok. I'll get some FMP credit one day and have a look myself.......

                                    So, given all the information, would you add the Waymans to your tree if you had the Hemmings'? I still haven't as I hate to have incorrect information in my tree but I really dont see how I'm ever going to confirm it for sure.
                                    Hail Spode!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                                      Incidentally, "jointen mute" looks as if it's probably "Jointers mate" - and may really be an expansion of the "labourer" (for the Government) occupation for Charles, not Henry.
                                      A jointer's mate is a recognised job in occupations involving joining cables together e.g. electricity supply and telecomms. He does what it says on the tin - helps a cable jointer.
                                      Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I'd be tempted to think that there was some reason why he'd decided not to use the old name, and the Hemming(s) was one he could remember reasonably well.

                                        I'd be inclined to include them - but then I do include hunches, in the full knowledge that I may have to remove them. Having done so, it's helped me make some important finds, so I'm fairly relaxed about it.

                                        Christine
                                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                        Comment

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