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Hit a brick wall re our Gt. Grandfather

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  • Hit a brick wall re our Gt. Grandfather

    Hi,

    Myself and extended family (5) of us have been trying to find the birth record of our Gt. Grandfather John Wade Clinton Sale for at least 2 years. We have hit a brick wall, and cannot even get a genealogist to help us. My brother has asked 3 genealogists, on seperate occasions, uploaded his Gedcom file, they either don't get back or if they do they come back with what we have all ready found out ourselves by looking on Ancestry.com or Familysearch.org. We have found out a lot about our Gt. Grandfather's acting career through the Era Magazine, and have his marriage cert, death cert, Census' from 1851 to 1871, have found a lot of info on his wife and her family, his children and who we believe to be his father (whose name he has on his marriage certificate). He said he was born in Greenwich on Census' but we have had a search done through Greenwich Heritage centre and he is not listed on baptism records for St. Alphage (the only church in Greenwich at the time). He was born c 1804 died aged 76 in 1880. What makes it complicated is the fact that he drops the name of Sale, we believe after his second child is born in 1855, as all his other children have the name of Clinton from then on with Sale as a middle name. We do not know if the 'Wade Clinton' is the name he was given at birth, or a name he gives himself for his 'actor's' name or was he simply a John Sale when baptised. We have found a John Wade Clinton Sale on the Familysearch.org but do not trust this record as there is no source. We have analysed a 'poem' he wrote in which he mentions 'the old grey church at Chiswick' he went to as a boy, contacted St. Nicholas Church archivists who did a search of baptisms from 1790 to 1815. There were schools in that area he could have gone to but sadly no records to look at apart from St. Nicholas Charity School, which we do not think he would have gone to because his family were well-off. They were all High Church Lay Vicars/Organists at Westminster and Windsor.
    Has anybody any idea where we can look next. I have joined the Westminster FHS to see if that will help our research.
    Has anbody any ideas as to how we can find his birth record, his sisters birth records have been found at St. Margaret's Westminster, there is nothing there for him.

    We are so frustrated as to where to look next - any ideas?

  • #2
    Perhaps he wasn't baptised or perhaps the vicar/clerk mistakenly left him off the register??? Sadly some records are not there for the finding :F

    Has anbody any ideas as to how we can find his birth record, his sisters birth records have been found at St. Margaret's Westminster, there is nothing there for him.
    If you are sure that this is his sister, then surely you have the parents names? Can you not go on from there?

    Anne

    Comment


    • #3
      Unlike birth registrations, which had to be made in the appropriate area of birth, baptisms could, and did, take place outside the home parish.
      I have some bps taking place in the parish where grandparents lived, or the parents were, for a short time, living in a neighbouring parish - etc, etc.

      Sometimes tracking down a bp can take years, especially if you are using secondary sources, like IGI, transcriptions etc. All you can do is keep a list of where you've searched and for what dates, and keep on plodding away.

      Jay
      Janet in Yorkshire



      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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      • #4
        Have you seen this? Or is it one of your family?

        RootsWeb's WorldConnect Project: Grigg/Ryrie
        Wendy



        PLEASE SCAN AT 300-600 DPI FOR RESTORATION PURPOSES. THANK YOU!

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        • #5
          I see he is calling himself John Wade Clinton in 1851 HO107; Piece: 1737; Folio: 251; Page: 38 where his living as a lodger and also there is Caroline Rogers who looks like becomes his wife.
          Where did you find him in 1841?
          Margaret

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by WendyPusey View Post
            Have you seen this? Or is it one of your family?

            RootsWeb's WorldConnect Project: Grigg/Ryrie
            This tree doesn't look right for the sources it quotes eg it says father Richard Sales from the Christening: 04 APR 1813 St Alphage, Greenwich, Kent yet on the tree it gives father as John Bernard Sale ??
            Also against the entry for John Wade Clinton Sale it says christened: 24 Nov 1811 Bethel-Wesleyan, Rochester, Kent, England ??
            Otherwise it does look like a match.
            Margaret

            Comment


            • #7
              There is a pedigree resource file on Familysearch.org belonging to Janet Faye GUTHRIE
              19 Eden Avenue Heathmont Vic 3135 so it might be worth getting in touch with her.
              Looks like the tree on rootsweb is hers too.
              Margaret

              Comment


              • #8
                just a thought, is he older than is sister (who you say you've found a baptism for). Sometimes, the wife went back to her mothers for the birth, especially if it was her first. So he might be baptised in his grandparents' parish.

                If you're fairly sure about his sisters baptism, then presumably you have tenative parents? Have you got anywhere with them, or were you waiting till you'd seen his baptism? If he was their first child, have you considered the possibility that they may not have been married at the time, so he might be baptised with his mother's surname. Or that it was her second marriage (or his).

                I'd echo Jay's remarks about baptisms away from where you might expect. I'm currently working on some in the Yorkshire Dales, and have seen several entries with remarks like "late of Muker parish but now living in Shewsbury".
                I also came across one in Kent, "Parents from Birmingham" - understandable perhaps as the occupation of the husband is given as "traveller". Until everything is transcribed & searchable online, these will stay hidden to their unfortunate descendents.
                Vicky

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re John Wade Clinton

                  Hi Everbody,

                  Thanks for all your help. Firstly we do not trust all of the records on the familysearch.org i.e. as if you notice there is no source for some of the records. Yes we have seen all of the records put on different sites, the submitter has John Wade Clinton Sale as being baptised at the Bethel Weslyan Chapel in Kent, I requested and looked at that record through the Latter Day site on film at one of their centres in Gloucester, it says John Sale son of John Sale and Mary. Then on the same site the submitter has his father down as Richard Sale, with no source. His parents were we believe John Bernard Sale and Ann Pruen. He has John Bernard Sale as his father on his marriage certificate.Firstly his parents we believe would not have had him christened at the Weslyan Chapel as his family were Lay Vicars at Westminster and Windsor and were very High Church. His sisters 3 of them were baptised at St. Margaret's Westminster and my brother went there and has a copy of those. He is not baptised at Greenwich St. Alphage as had that search done. Also yes it could be possible that he was born in Greenwich and christened elsewhere, and we have thought of the possibility that his mother may have been staying with her parents for his birth. This would have been in Bristol, where his mother's parents lived.
                  We have not found him in an 1841 Census as yet (but not for the want of trying), but he was acting at the time (started in 1827) but have scoured the 1841 Census's with no avail. There is no mention of him in his father's Will, but the story handed down in the family through an Aunt of my second cousin who knew John Wade Clinton's daughter, was that he was ostracised by his family for becoming an actor and not joining the Church like his Father, and Grandfathers' before him.
                  I think we will have to soldier on and maybe he will just 'pop-up' one day, after all we have found even more Sale family since we started researching. Thanks again for all your help, I'll let you know if we do find him!

                  Ann Banks (nee Clinton)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Ann

                    Keep looking !!

                    I searched and searched for ages for my Martin family in the 1841 census. I finally decided to page through all the Robert's born in Brighton in 1839/40/41, which thankfully was not too many pages. Eventually I found him hiding under Robert Mont??, with father William (as per marriage cert), mother Elizabeth (as per 1851 census). The census had him down as 2 months, which disagreed with his 1861 census when he said he was 22 (but he also said that in 1859 when he got married, so I was distrustful of his marriage certificate). Still cannot find baptisms for him or his brothers (William and James), but one day they will turn up.

                    Also Robert and his wife lived in London, and had two children born there, but returned to Brighton to baptised both children.
                    Diane
                    Sydney Australia
                    Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re John Wade Clinton

                      Hi Diane,

                      Thanks for your support. Yes I know what you mean about names being wrong on Census' or being put wrongly on sites. A little while back when we were looking for the 1841 Census of John Wade Clinton Sale's father - I managed to find it on Genesreunited, whereas the other members of my family couldn't find it on their Ancestry.com site, when they did find it - Ancestry.com had them down as 'Tall' instead of 'Sale' although it was 'Sale' on the Original copy of the Census. Unfortunately John Wade was not on this Census having already left home.
                      We have sometimes wondered if he was not a son of John Bernard Sale. Maybe he was 'taken in' by the family and educated by them. You can tell that he was well educated by the poetry he wrote. Or we are still missing a family member on the tree and John Bernard had a brother - who died, and John Bernard takes John under his wing - who knows, there are endless possibilities. It is strange that he is not mentioned in the Obituary of John Bernard (got from the Times newspaper) or in his Will, but I suppose if you were ostracised in those days - you were well and truly ostracised.!!

                      Ann Banks

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