The Winner of Who Do We Think You Are 1st October 2009 is ....................

[John-Nihon]

apuman

Good luck, hope you manage to get a few bits and pieces sorted out :Big Grin:

[apuman]

wdwtya

Thanks John.

I would be grateful for some fresh views conerning my G/uncles life.
He was Ernest Connor born in Gravesend in 1878
Staying with grandparents in 1881 census.
At St. Vincents RC Industrial school in 1891 now listed as O'Connor
Missing from 1901 census I believe
At 48 Tabard St Southwark in 1911 with wife Annie age 37 and daughter
May age7 with nine years completed marriage. Annie and May both born in
London Boro.
Presumably Annie dies because he marries in Southwark RC church in June
1916. In August 1917 he is killed in Flanders.
The years for the marriage ,birth and death do not seem to fit well with
the ages given and the registration data. I did get one birth and one marrige cert. for Connor that did match quite closely but they were wrong
Suggestions on where to go next particlarly to find Annie's maiden name
would be appreciated
Colin

[Darksecretz]

hiya

there is a birth in gravesend, 1878

Ernest Henry A Connor
Jan/Feb/Mar Q
district:gravesend
Kent
Vol: 2a
Page:459

[Darksecretz]

he could be listed in any of his other names on the 1901. might be worth looking.. also for the marriages :smilee:

[Darksecretz]

hmmm the marriage in 1916 is to a Alice M. Diaper. BUT the grooms name is Ernest J. O'Connor.

this is June Q, 1916 southwark btw

[apuman]

Hi, Yes that birth in 1878 is without doubt his as the Catholic childrens Society who later ran St.Vincents (see 1891 census) have records that state he was born on 5th Feb. 1878.

Perhaps I should add that it is the marriage to Annie and birth of May and Possible death of Annie that do not seem to fit any dates given in the registers.
I have the certificate for the marriage in June 1916 and curiously his status is given as batchelor but this has been lightly scratched through but with no alteration made.He gave his name then as Ernest Joseph O'Connor .I understand the middle name could be his RC confirmation name

[kylejustin]

what is his fathers name on the certs?

[apuman]

Hi Kylejustin, I only have the one cert. ie marriage in 1916.

he states Ernest O'Connor ( deceased) ships steward.Looks like he died in 1907 age 52 in Gravesend.

1891 census says Ernest J.Connor ships steward born London Marylebone
1881 LDS transcription says John Ernest Connor..house painter
1901 census says Ernest J O'Connor..house painter

Colin

BTW.. I have found that if looking for O'Connor on Freebmd you must have the
phonetic search on surnames box checked

[margaretmarch]

What was Ernest's occupation?
Margaret

[apuman]

Hi Margaret

In the 1911 census it is market porter. There is still a large food market in Southwark today. ( Borough Market )

On the 1916 marriage cert.it says street trader (fruit). But it also shows him as being in the army ( Kings Royal Rifle Brigade)

Colin

[margaretmarch]

Do you have the WW1 papers? is the child May shown at all? I would have thought he would have to declare her as a dependent.
Have you looked on ancestry for any children of the second marriage?
Margaret

[apuman]

Margaret, I haven't got a current ancestry subcription but of course I have done searching on there in the past. Firstly I paid the national archives to search soldiers records with no result. Then I paid LDS to view their copy of the relevant file again without finding papers on him so I imagine that they were among the two thirds destroyed in WW2. Nat. archives have only kept a few of the widows pension claim forms I believe and I couldn't find Alice Martha O'Connor among those . From the army museum I did obtain an entry from the effects register showing £1-3s-11d paid to Alice after his death and £5-10s war gratuity in 1920.
I believe some soldiers pension records survived because they were stored some where else in ww2 but I haven,t tried to find those yet.
I did search for O'Connor children but did not find any .There were a lot going back to 1911 registered as Diaper with the mother's m.n. the same but they were scattered over the country with none in the London area.
But as I said my main concern is to know if there was a first marriage
, a registration of May's birth and a death of Annie before the second marriage.I am tempted to send for the death cert. for an Annie O'Connor in
Southwark in1914 but age should be about 39 not 59 I know mistakes occur
but I don't think a death cert then gave maiden names. What do you think?

Colin

[margaretmarch]

No, I don't think you'd get a maiden name but you might get a relative's name that could help, or if Ernest registered it you would know for sure it was her.

It could be of course that they didn't marry but had a child whose registered name is not O'Connor.
If Ernest was RC is it worth checking with the local RC church to see if they have any burial details for Annie? or maybe a christening record for May?
Margaret

[apuman]

Church of the Precious Blood
Margaret
This is the church we are talking about.Used to have its own website but I can't find it now.I will contact them but it is unlikely that they have kept the records at the church especially through 2 world wars and I think RC archived records are just not viewable. It would be interesting to hear the experiences
of other members who have sought archived RC material. The other problem is what name would you give them to look under?
I will send for that death cert but that of course takes time to arrive. There is another one nearby in Lambeth in 1915 but that says age 45 when according to her she would be 40/41.As I say mistakes can occur. One of Ernests uncles has his marriage in the registers as Wotton instead of Notton but I was able to track that down through his brides name.
Colin

PS You may have guessed that the church was also where Ernest was married in 1916
PPS Is or was your location anywhere near Cottesmore? I was there for 4 years.

[margaretmarch]

I have no experience of RC church records so perhaps other members here can advise on that. I would ask for Ernest's name as the surname for May as I don't suppose the RC faith would be happy about baptising an illegitimate child.
I live the other side of Rutland Water to Cottesmore but it's not far. Were you involved with the RAF there?
Margaret

[apuman]

Margaret, I will try phoning the church tomorrow to get their opinion.
Being RC and with the name of Connor you probably guess that there is an irish connection somewhere and yes it is Ernests grandfather John James Connor
who appears in the 1851 census in London staying with his future wife .her mother and some siblings who were all born in Liverpool so I guess that is where he entered England. He appears in 5 censuses, giving variously Ireland,Limerick and Glynn as birthplaces. Since there is no Glynn spelt that way In Limerick I believe it is an enumerators error for Glin.
Hopefully other members will kindly give us their experiences of RC records
Colin
Yes I was with the RAF working on the V bombers from 1961 to 1965 or at least on their engines. I had rooms first in the old rectory in S.Witham. Then a cottage in Scalford where I had to battle the travelling in that awful winter of 1963 and then married quarters at Cottesmore . I did have a 4 month detachment with the aircraft in Malaya when the president of Indonesia started threatening. I don,t think there was a Rutland Water in those days

[margaretmarch]

No Rutland Water was formed about 30 years ago and they flooded a number of houses when they built the dam. There is a partly submerged church at Normanton which is now a museum showing the construction of the lake and what was destroyed when it was built along with what was found!
Margaret

[Elaine ..Spain]

Not sure I can offer much more that Margaret has already done!
I know you have said that you have searched for the service records at TNA but it might be worth keeping an eye on Ancestry when the next batch of WW1 Service Records are added - just in case it appears. They are up to the letter 'N' at the moment so in theory it shouldn't be long, although I don't think they have updated the database for quite a few months now.

[apuman]

Thanks Margaret and Elaine. I didn't actually do the search at TNA but paid
them but I did search the LDS churches file. The odds are 3 to 1 against finding anything anyway. It would be invaluable to see the attestation form as presumably he filled that in before the marriage in June 1916 which states his occupation as the army.But I will search when they add more names to ancestry
I have searched Scotlands people for the missing info on the family but no result of course. I do not know about searching Irish Records apart from the 1911 census which they are still transcribing I believe. Odd that the 1901 census follows that . He is missing from the English 1901 so I wondered if he might be in Ireland then and even married there.
However do we agree that they they most likely were never married and invented the 9 years marriage on the 1911 census form to cover the age 7 of May and that her age give then is most probably true.Where did I read that it is easy to prove a marriage took place but impossible to prove it didn't.
Colin

[Elaine ..Spain]

I thought the 1911 Irish census was now complete - National Archives: Census of Ireland 1911

- with hopefully the 1901 to come either the latter part of this year or early part of next year.