help solve a puzzle

[mikeg13]

went to library today , got on to the Ancestry site, saw the new stuff, wonderful, but when found marriage bans for Edwin Charles Martyn and Emma Amelia Williams Christ Church 4th Aug 1884 gave me quite a shock as he had his father as a John Martyn Custom house officer, up to this point was sure his father was a Sam Martyn married to a Jane Minards, Sam had died I thought 1853 and Jane remarried a Joseph Lee. Based my thoughts on census returns and information from a Cornish society member.
Assumed I must have it wrong, but then found baptism record for there children done as a group St Mary Lambeth 28th Apr. 1897 and one of the children had as part of name Minard, am very unsure now what to do, could he have given his grandfathers name instead of his fathers (think his name was John) not sure what cirt to send of for to see what is correct.

[margaretmarch]

Birth cert for Edwin I would think should solve the mystery as it will show if father was John or Sam or maybe had both names.
Margaret

[Darksecretz]

hi Mike

try posting some details and we can see what we will find :smilee:

you never know what will turn up!

[mikeg13]

Samuel Martyn (1805) Talland Cornwall married Jane Minards at Saint Antholin Budge Row, 20 Aug 1833 , London,
Children

Edwin Charles 1852 Newington married Emma Williams, pretty sure its right one as her father was Joseph Bedford Williams and the Bedford bit carried through to my grandmother Lilian Bedford Martyn (1888)
William Miniard 1835
Priscilla 1837
Samuel Thomas 1841
John Richard 1845
Arthur Nathaniel 1849
Jane Emma 1839
Alfred Joseph 1847

1891 census shows him as a coffee house keeper 754 Woolwich Road
1871 census shows him living with Jane and Stepfather Joseph Lee assuming its the same Edwin

is that enough for you to look at, never quite sure what is wanted

[Darksecretz]

right just so we know whats needed..

to clarify.. you are looking for the parents of edwin? and there whereabouts?

and you have all details of edwin and his siblings?

sorry if i sound abit dim, I take it you dont have an ancestry sub at home?

[mikeg13]

use it via local library, was pretty sure about parents it was a shock to me to see the wedding bans, cant get head around it at all. On the bans it does not say deceased either for father and would have expected it to.
Martyn spelling that way is not exactly common, did spend fair bit of time while there looking for a John Martyn but could not find one.

[Olde Crone Holden]

It will only say deceased on the Banns if the Vicar asked the question and recorded the reply correctly!

As for the spelling of Martyn....there was no standard spelling of surnames before 1875 and people just wrote what they heard. Your man could be recorded as Martin just as easily as he could be recorded as Martyn.

OC

[mikeg13]

As for the spelling of Martyn....there was no standard spelling of surnames before 1875 and people just wrote what they heard. Your man could be recorded as Martin just as easily as he could be recorded as Martyn.

OC

Am sure you are correct but have yet to find an example in this line, of a spelling change, and while looking through the Cornish records to find them 2 distinct lines, going back a fair way, Martin and Martyn. But do take your point the names are not written in stone.
Will send of for his cirt though am very sure that it will be Samuel his father, puzzled why the name change.

[Darksecretz]

1861:
- Ancestry.co.uk

Jane martyn-widow, 45. born cornwall polperro.
John martyn- 16
Arthur martyn 11
Edwin 8
lodgers: mary watson, 40
charles moore 30.
nina moore 28.

1851 mistrans as Jane MARTHA with samuel and children Samuel Born LOOE Cornwall.

there is a Reginald staying with them he might be a relative of either or neither.
- Ancestry.co.uk

[Olde Crone Holden]

Nice one Julie!

OC

[Darksecretz]

I'm flabbered though I can't see em in the 41.

if they were both born in cornwall though how likely is it that they married in london?

[Darksecretz]

I think I realise now what has happened. the Edwin Charles that you found intially isnt your Edwin Charles, there are at least TWO Edwin Charles Martyns born in london in 1853! :smilee: so you probably have found one of the others :smilee:

[Olde Crone Holden]

What certificates do you have backward from yourself? You say you are "pretty sure that's right" but I think you need to get certs to be sure you are following the correct line.

OC

[mikeg13]

The Edwin Charles think is mine is the one born in Newington 1852 1d 165 will send away for the cirt.
Have my mums and her mums (though at mo cant find it collecting so much paper) , have been in contact with with a member of Cornwall society who sent me what they have on the line. though dont belong to ancestry did use 14 day trial and while had it saw a Chapman public tree, though have not used info from it, its pretty much in line with what had and few things from my mums letters and papers have seemed to support it, but you have far my experience than me and would be grateful for any help, as its a learning curve am on and seems a long way to go.

[Darksecretz]

this is why it is better to get the certificates as you go along... can save alot of time esp if you chase the wrong line :smilee:

you will find with this hobby/obsession :conf: lol that you do collect ALOT of paperwork.. scribbled notes and ramblings, welcome to the world of family history :smilee:

it isnt an easy hobby, and no doubt that you will find problems whichever way you turn, but thats all part and parcel i'm afraid, been there, done that. etc..

did you find Jane/sam on the 1841 census at all?? I am having awful problems trying to find them, or did the info come from your cornish contact?

[Darksecretz]

if you havent got a sub at the moment to ancestry then

FreeCEN - UK Census Online Project

this might help, I dont know how complete it is, but its worthwhile checking back regluarly.

there is also:

FreeREG - Search UK Parish Register Indices

and of course:

FreeBMD Home Page

just to keep you busy :smilee:

[Olde Crone Holden]

Just so we can help you check what you've done, who are your grandmother's parents, according to her birth cert and have you identified them on any census?

Incidentally, we ALL make mistakes - that includes me, and any other person, iand people who put trees on public sites and people who offer you information, so don't assume "they" have got it right and you have got it wrong - the only way to do this is by certificate, because it looks as if you have fallen on that irritating phenomenon which I call parallel families!

OC

[mikeg13]

no have not found in 41, but 1871 has Edwin with mum and stepfather Joseph Lee in Bermondsey and 1881 has mum and step dad with one of the children at a coffee shop, lots of coffee shop links with my lot, thats one of reasons was so sure what had so far was right as the Williams who his wife(Emma Williams) was had coffee shops as well, but seems need to do bit more research.
Have Sam Martyn and Jane Minards marrying at Saint Antholin Budge Row, London, 20 Aug 1833
Grandmother parents Edwin Charles Martyn/Emma Williams, marr. St Olaves Southwark 04 Aug 1884.
have taken that from my computer as still cant find cirt to double check have not copied into family tree maker program accurately (quite possible)

[Night Owl]

This looks like them in 1841. The writing isn't good and its been transcribed as Samuell and Lane Martyn with Priscilla as Bricelera

- Ancestry.co.uk

Samuel Martyn 24 bootmaker (I think)
Jane 26
William 6
Priciler (I think that's how its written) 4
Jane Emma 2

They're in St Mary Newington

[Darksecretz]

Rats Jackie!!! you beat me to it...lol

- Ancestry.co.uk

but good to see we are looking in the right place. :Big Grin:

Mike,

where did you get Samuels/Janes marriage from please?

(hope your name is mike now, or I'll feel a right narna!!!)