Settlement order question

[Ozzie Gert]

If a man , wife and 2 children moved parishes and got a settlement order for the new parish, how long was he obliged to stay in the new parish?

Would anyone know please

Sylvia

[Darksecretz]

I would say it would be permanent Sylvia..

[Ozzie Gert]

Thank you Julie, its just the couple had more children after that and they seem to have been baptised in the old parish, this is 1770

Sylvia

[Ozzie Gert]

Thomas and Elizabeth Hales married in 1765 Uttoxeter Staffs, 2 oldest children are on the settlement order to Egginton Derbyshire dated 1770, there are 5 more children born/baptised starting in 1771, all Uttoxeter Staffs.

Sylvia

[Darksecretz]

I don't know alot about settlement orders but I have seen documentation etc..

Praps they had a removal order served on them? so had to go back to their 'home' parish?

where are you finding this information Sylvia? TNA?

[Oakum Picker]

I believe when someone arrived with a settlement cert. the receiving parish would have been in no hurry to issue their own even though the person may have lived & worked there for several years. There are many cases in Quarter Sessions where parishes argue over place of settlement.

In this case it looks as though he was returned to his original place of settlement. Did they baptise any children in Eggington?

[Ozzie Gert]

Julie... someone with a tree on Ancestry has a picture of the order on the tree, the family belongs to my OHs tree.

Glen... from what i have found, no children were baptised in Egginton and the youngest of the 2 children that went to Egginton was baptised in Jan 1770 and the order is dated Feb 1770

I just thought it strange for them to have settlement there and the children not baptised there.

Sylvia

[Oakum Picker]

Hi Sylvia,

I misunderstood: I thought the settlement cert. was issued by Uttoxeter.

It's difficult to have a considered opinion without all of the facts. Do you know where Thomas was born & do you have any sign of him in Eggington? What was his occupation?

This may be completely wrong but I think Thomas was born in Eggington & as a young man went off to the big city (Uttoxeter) where he met & married Elizabeth. Then he came to the notice of the authorities who told him that if he wanted to stay in their fair city, he'd better get a cert. from his birthplace. This he did & he carried on he living happily in Uttoxeter.

OK shoot it down.

[Ozzie Gert]

You could be right Glen, i don`t have a birth/baptism for either parent as yet, still looking, but trees on Ancestry give both parents as born Uttoxeter or Thomas born Derbyshire.

I haven`t put a birthplace on my FTM tree

Sylvia

[Ozzie Gert]

Just had another look and it looks like Elizabeth Walker was born in Uttoxeter 1742

Sylvia

[Oakum Picker]

Uttoxeter would have been Elizabeth's place of settlement if she was the legitimate child of her father & that was his, until she married Thomas & then hers & all children became his.

Thomas may have been from Uttoxeter but served an apprenticeship in Eggington. It was also possible to gain settlement by serving a year in service but many employers avoided this by hiring for 364 days.

My 3xg-gf was born in Dunstable Beds but lived & worked in Hitchin all his life. However an Examination in 1841 stated he had done nothing to gain settlement elsewhere. In many of my cases & I have a lot, the family were not actually returned but the parish of settlement was asked to make payment. Quite often when they were returned to their place of settlement they returned "home" within a few weeks.

[Ozzie Gert]

Thats interesting , thank you Glen.

Parts of the order are hard to read, some words are crossed out and some seem out of focus, but one of the witnesses was a John Walker, which was also the name of Elizabeths father on the baptism i found, could he have possibly moved to Eggington before them.

Sylvia

[Guy]

I am not sure I understand the question.

A settlement certificate was issued by the parish of settlement to assure parishes a person worked in and passed through that he/she was from the parish claimed.
It meant that in times of hardship he/she would be their responsibility and not a drain on the "new" parish.
It was issued by the parish he/she was settled in not by the “new” parish.

There was no time limit but if a person stayed in another parish over a year they could claim settlement there.
In effect this produced a time limit of 364 or 365 (in a leap year) days.
Cheers
Guy

If he/she stayed in the new parish over a year and gained settlement rights there he/she could stay as long as he/she wished.
They would not get a settlement certificate unless they wished to move to a new parish for work.
Cheers
Guy

[Mary from Italy]

2 oldest children are on the settlement order to Egginton Derbyshire dated 1770

Do you mean there was a removal order from Uttoxeter to Egginton?

[Oakum Picker]

No it was a Settlement Certificate issued by Eggington by which, I think Thomas was allowed to work & live in Uttoxeter.

I think Sylvia thinks he was working in Eggington & kept returning to Uttoxeter to have the children baptised.

[Mary from Italy]

Can I ask the settlement certificate experts if there's any likelihood of finding one in the period c1671-1695?

I have an ancestor who was living in Lichfield in 1695; there doesn't seem to be a birth/baptism in Lichfield, but there's a promising one in Coventry (the age is right, and the name's unusual). However, I should like to find some more evidence. Is it too early for a settlement certificate, and if not, would I be more likely to find a cert in the Lichfield or Warwick archives (or both)?

[Anne in Carlisle]

The survival to the present day of Settlement Examinations and Certificates seems to be a bit random.

In my case I have a settlement examination in Lincolnshire in 1816. Its very informative as it details movement over the last 4 years including the marriage and living for a year in the place where the first child was born......
However - I don't really understand why he was examined and what the result was!

I have copied the Examination below. I would be so grateful if someone could suggest why Robert needed examining. There is no surviving certificate and he apparently lived for the rest of his life in Burgh and died there aged 88. No-one else in this family has any surviving poor law stuff - perhaps those papers didn't survive?

A Summary
Robert East's parents married in Burgh in 1791
Robert was born in Winthorpe in 1792
some of Robert's later siblings were born in Burgh so assume the family moved back there about 1800 at the latest.
The Examination
Parts of Lindsey County of Lincoln
The examination of Robert East of Burgh in the
Marsh in the said parts labourer touching those
places of his last legal settlement taken upon oath
before His Majesty’s Justices of the Peace for the
said parts this twelfth day of February 1816.
Who saith that four years ago Old May Day last he let himself for a year to John Kelk of Burgh in the Marsh
aforesaid Grazier. That he entered on his service served two
whole years and received his full wages. After which he
married Susanna Westerby, spinster, by banns in the
Parish Church at Welton in the Marsh in the said parts
his present wife. Then let himself for a year as a Confined
labourer to William Dawson and Thomas Carr Brackenbury
of Mumby cum Chappel in the said parts Graziers at the
wages of twenty eight pounds and ten shillings a year, the
Liberty of living in a part of the Farm House, the use of a
Milch Cow and about as much land as grow’d one
hundred pecks of Potatoes. That he entered on his service
served a whole year and received his full wages. That he is
Twenty four years of Age and hath not since done any other
Act whereby to gain a settlement in any manner whatever.
Taken and Sworn
before us Robert East (signed)
C Brackenbury (signed)
G Street (signed)

[Ozzie Gert]

Thank you all for your input, i have tried to copy what it says, but there are some words i am having trouble reading.

We Theoph? Br? and William ? church wardens and overseers of the poor of the parish of Eggington in the county Derbyshire.
aforesaid do hereby own and aknowledge Thomas Hales, Elizabeth his wife and ? John and Mary their children.------
----to be inhabitants, legaly fettled in the parish of Eggington aforesaid

In which, where?, we have ? ? our hands and souls, the ninth day of February in the tenth year of the reign of our
Sovereign Lord GEORGE the Third by the Grace of God of Great Britain, France and Ireland, KING defender of the faith
and so forth and in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and seventy.

(There is a couple of signatures here i`m having trouble reading) though one is a John Walker. (Witnesses)


To the church wardens and overseers of the ? of the parish of Uttoxeter ? in the county of Stafford or in any or either of them.

We whom names are here? ? Justices of the peace, of the county of Derby aforesaid, do hereby Certify that ? ? and John Walker,
one of the witnesses to those above written certificate, made Oath before us, that ????? the said ? poor law ? and ? and ?
church wardens and overseers aforesaid feverally sign and seal the said certificate and that the names of Thomas ? and John Walker.

Witnesses are of their own proper Hand Writing respectively and we do allow of the certificate above written.

Dated the ninth day of February, in the year of our LORD One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy

John Every

Ver?

[Ozzie Gert]

No it was a Settlement Certificate issued by Eggington by which, I think Thomas was allowed to work & live in Uttoxeter.

I think Sylvia thinks he was working in Eggington & kept returning to Uttoxeter to have the children baptised.

Almost right Glen, i thought once he got settlement in Egginton. he worked and stayed there and couldn`t understand why the children were all baptised in Uttoxeter. Something just didn`t seem right.

Thomas Hales married Elizabeth Walker 17 Oct 1765 Uttoxeter Staffs.

Children all baptised Uttoxeter,

John 1768-1775
Mary 1770 (Jan) these 2 are on the settlement cert

William 1771 (Oct)
John 1776
Edward 1777 OHs ancestor
Abi 1783
Thomas 1786

Sylvia

[Oakum Picker]

Hi Sylvia,

The way I read it is that for whatever reason, by birth or apprenticeship or other, Egginton was Thomas HALES' legal place of settlement as stated in the document. He was already living in Uttoxeter it would appear from his marriage & first two children's baptisms but then came to the notice of the authorities who thought he might not be able to support his family.

Eggington then provided him with his S.C. which says he was their responsibility. If there was any disagreement there might be details in the Quarter Session Records.

The Settlement Cert. wasn't giving him permission to work in Eggington as such, it was making it possible to move elsewhere for work.