Missing Census Persons

[oliveriles]

I have been looking for the following people without success.

1881 Census entry for Frederick Western also known as Frederick Hepper Western born 1850 in Witheridge, Devon.

I know he married in 1884 in Bristol.


I have in 51,61,71 & 91 & 09.


Also looking for;

1891 Census entry for Laura Western born 1884 in Bristol.

Have her in 1901 with her family - parents Frederick Hepper Western & Elizabeth Western age 17, but she was not with her Parents 10 years before so with grandparents maybe but can't locate.



Also in this entry they have the name of someone I am looking at as Ellen Western - I think they have transcribed wrongly and should be Eliza or Elizabeth - what do you think

- Ancestry.co.uk


thanks for looking

[Trina]

That second "e" in Ellen looks a bit suspicious doesn't it! Could be a z which would be Eliza.

[Debbie]

Sorry, I took a look and I can't seem to find him either. Maybe he was away when they did the census

[Mary from Italy]

Frederick married Mary Ann Davis according to an extracted (ie. probably reliable) record on the IGI:

FREDERICK HEPPER WESTERN
Male

Marriages:
Spouse: MARY ANN DAVIS
Marriage: 14 OCT 1884 St Marys Redcliffe, Bristol, Gloucester, England

Can't see a second marriage to Elizabeth.

It looks as though Laura was born in 1883, but given the surname Western although her parents weren't married yet (which is unusual, but possible):

Births Dec 1883
Western Laura Bristol 6a 3

[Mary from Italy]

Also in this entry they have the name of someone I am looking at as Ellen Western - I think they have transcribed wrongly and should be Eliza or Elizabeth - what do you think

I think it is Ellen Western - there's another Ellen a few lines up on the same page, which is written similarly.

Can't find a marriage for Frederick Western to an Ellen, though.

[Mary from Italy]

Just found them in 1891, and there's a child with Frederick and M A called Eliza, who's a similar age to the Laura in 1901, and might possibly be the same child.

There is a birth for a Laura Elizabeth Davies in Gloucs, but it's after the marriage, so that's no good.

[Mary from Italy]

There's another daughter called Mary A with Frederick, Elizabeth and Laura in 1901, who's missing in 1891.

Possible death for Mary Ann sr

Deaths Sep 1901
Western Mary Ann 54 Bristol 6a 14

[Mary from Italy]

Laura's marriage:

Marriages Dec 1907
BATT Ernest Francis Bristol 6a 377
DYER John Albert Bristol 6a 377
TANNER Rosina Bristol 6a 377
WESTERN Laura Bristol 6a 377

There's a Laura Dyer of the right age and birthplace living with John Albert in 1911.

[Mary from Italy]

Story so far:

Frederick Hepper, 11 months, is with his unmarried mother Elizabeth Hepper in Witheridge in 1851.

In 1861, Elizabeth Bulled is in Witheridge with "husband" Henry Bulled, his stepsons Walter Western Hepper and Frederick Western Hepper, and 3 Bulled children.

Elizabeth Hepper marries Henry Bulled in 1867.

Marriages Mar 1867
BEAKES Phoebe Ann Bristol 6a 131
Bulled Henry Bristol 6a 131
Derham Theophilus Sheppard Bristol 6a 131
HEPPER Elizabeth Bristol 6a 131

In 1871, Elizabeth Bulled (married), is living in Bristol with Frederick Western, his wife Ellen, and various Bulled children. Can't see Henry, but can't find a likely death either.

In 1881, can't see Frederick anywhere.

In 1891, Frederick, wife MA and daughter Eliza, 9, are living in Bristol.

In 1901, Frederick, wife Elizabeth L, and daughters Mary A, 19 and Laura, 17, are living in Bristol.

Mary Ann senior dies in 1901, Laura marries in 1907.

Can't see Frederick in 1911.

This is Walter's birth:

Births Jun 1848
Hepper / Walter Western / Exeter 10 118

Presumably he was illegitimate and his father's surname was Western.

This must be Frederick's birth, as the S. Molton reg. district includes Witheridge:

Births Jun 1850
Western / Frederic / S Molton / 10 212

Presumably Mr Western agreed to go along to the registry office when Frederick's birth was registered (but not Walter's).

[oliveriles]

Thank you for looking at this - your summary is spot on.

With regard to 'There's another daughter called Mary A with Frederick, Elizabeth and Laura in 1901, who's missing in 1891.

Possible death for Mary Ann sr'

My view is that they recorded the entries the wrong way round against age and position in household - so the mary ann is still the mother, and Laura, Elizabeth are still the children.

So the issues are I am stilling to resolve;

1881 Census entry for Frederick Western a
1891 Census entry for Laura Western born 1884 in Bristol.
1871 Entry for Ellen Western - who is this person - its says married to Frederick, but he was Married to Mary by 1884 and I can not find another marriage.

[Mary from Italy]

With regard to 'There's another daughter called Mary A with Frederick, Elizabeth and Laura in 1901, who's missing in 1891.

My view is that they recorded the entries the wrong way round against age and position in household - so the mary ann is still the mother, and Laura, Elizabeth are still the children.

That's possible, and would explain why we can't find a marriage to Elizabeth. However, you can't take it for granted, so you need to do a thorough search for Elizabeth and Mary in 1891 in case they really do exist and she was just cohabiting with Frederick in 1901.

So the issues are I am stilling to resolve;

1881 Census entry for Frederick Western a
1891 Census entry for Laura Western born 1884 in Bristol.
1871 Entry for Ellen Western - who is this person - its says married to Frederick, but he was Married to Mary by 1884 and I can not find another marriage.

It looks as though he was just cohabiting with Ellen; as you say, there doesn't appear to be another marriage, but we need to try and find her in earlier censuses, which won't be all that easy without knowing her maiden name.

It's also just possible that she was somebody else's wife - it just says "wife", but not whose.

I wonder where Walter was in 1851? I've had a look, but not found him yet.

Elizabeth's parents appear to be John and Susanna (if the baptism I've found on the IGI is the correct one) - have you found them on any censuses?

We also need to find Frederick in 1911 or a death between 1901 and 1911.

I have had a quick look at the Ancestry passenger lists to see if he was abroad in 1881 or 1911, but I can't see him. He doesn't seem to be on the incoming passenger lists to the UK, but they don't start till 1890.

You could try looking at the outgoing passenger lists on FindmyPast.

[Mary from Italy]

I think you need to get Frederick's birth certificate to confirm his parentage - as he was registered as a Western, his father should be named with a bit of luck.

According to the BIVRI marriage entry, he named his father as William Western when he got married:

- Ancestry.co.uk

Might be worth getting Laura's birth certificate as well; the one I found in 1883 is possible, but not definite.

[oliveriles]

Thanks again Mary for the posts - dealing with the second one 1st.

I have Frederick's birth Certificate and William Western is listed as the father.

I have ordered his Children's (Laura & Elizabrth) birth certificates, I am sure it will confirm Frederick as the Father.

With regard to your 1st post today.

"It looks as though he was just cohabiting with Ellen; as you say, there doesn't appear to be another marriage, but we need to try and find her in earlier censuses, which won't be all that easy without knowing her maiden name. - AGREED NO MAIDEN NAME DOES MAKE IT TOUGH TO PROGRESS

It's also just possible that she was somebody else's wife - it just says "wife", but not whose. - YES AGREED, BUT I HAVE BEEN THROUGH ALL THE WESTERN MARRIAGES ON FREEBmD FROM 1871 TO 1881 AND THERE IS NO MARRIAGE FOR A WESTERN TO ANYONE WITH A FIRST NAME OF ELLEN, SO LOOKS LIKE SHE WAS NOT REALLY ANYONE'S WIFE.

I wonder where Walter was in 1851? I've had a look, but not found him yet. - YEP IT WOULD BE GOOD TO FIND HIM - ON HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE NO FATHER IS NAMED

Elizabeth's parents appear to be John and Susanna (if the baptism I've found on the IGI is the correct one) - have you found them on any censuses?

YEP
1841
- Ancestry.co.uk
1851
- Ancestry.co.uk

We also need to find Frederick in 1911 or a death between 1901 and 1911.

AGREED - STILL LOOKING

You could try looking at the outgoing passenger lists on FindmyPast. - CHECKED NO JOY