daniel Gurr help please

[gloryer]

I am looking into Daniel Gurr c 1843 chart sutton Kent. It appears that he has had 3 wives and wonder if anybody can find one of them in a previous census. He married a Mary Smith b 1830 Sutton Valence Kent in 1876 but because of the age difference I think this must have been her name from her previous marriage so I wonder if anybody can find her in a census so that I can locate her maiden name (if you see what I mean):D
He was married to Harriet Pattenden 1865 and they had a daughter Anna. Harriet died 1867.

[Kate P]

Unfortunately I strongly suspect that getting the marriage certificate might be the only way to hunt down the potential maiden name - Mary and Smith are such common names that detangling marriages could prove impossible. Do you have any other reasons to believe it to be Mary's second marriage? Are there any children from her first marriage to give you clues? Did Mary and Daniel go on to have children, could you get one of their birth certs? Sorry to sound so pessimistic but there are 1148 Mary's marrying a man with a surname Smith in Kent between 1850 and 1875 on freebmd, for example!

That said, I'm finding her on ancestry, give me a few moments...

[Kate P]

Okay, 1871 she's in 20 Duke St, St James', Westminster, London, living with the Ball family as a monthly nusrse to their newborn. She's listed as a widow aged 39, so born abt 1832. Not much luck on 1861 so far.

[emeltee]

Hi,
the reference for Daniel and Mary's marriage is

Jun 1876 Medway vol 2a page 786

If you send for the certificate it should state the bride's name as Mary, late Smith, formerly ????

Hope this helps,
Emeltee

[kylejustin]

If you send for the certificate it should state the bride's name as Mary, late Smith, formerly ????

wouldn't it say " mary smith, father jack jones" ?

[Oakum Picker]

Emeltee,

No the marriage cert. won't show that -that appears on birth certs. It should have her father's name on the marriage cert. but if she was illegitimate it won't be there.

Did she bring any SMITH children to the marriage?

[Kate P]

Oakum, if Mary was married before then the marriage certificate should state it, usually in the form emeltee suggests. I have a couple like that in my records. The father's name will be a double check too.

Okay according to ancestry in the 1861 census there are 29 Mary's (blank surname search) born in Sutton Valence between 1825 and 1835. That's not too many to go through so you may well be able to track her down.

[gloryer]

thank you... I know all about hunting for SMiths and I did try to do that search of a Mary marrying a SMith and it took so long it timed out.....

Maybe I can find the marriage on cityark and suss out her fathers name.
Thanks again

[Oakum Picker]

Kate,

Are we talking about English marriage certs? I have hundreds & not one shows the former surnames - just the one she marries under & the fact that she's a widow & as long as she has one, her father's name.

Only the birth certs. I have give her current surname with the late ....., formerly ....... if she has been married before.

[gloryer]

I just checked my CD with sutton Valence baptisms and it doesnt go up to 1800.

[Kate P]

I'm sure I've got a couple. At least I thought I was. I'll have to check now, but I have a sinking feeling you're right Oakum! :o

[Oakum Picker]

Kate,

I wasn't trying to be clever but if perchance Mary was illegitimate, then Gloryer wouldn't be any closer to finding her maiden name.

That's always my first doubt with my lot as I come from a long line of bar stewards. If that isn't a common occurence in Gloryer's family then it would be £7 well spent.

[emeltee]

My apologies for posting duff gen. You are right Oakum about it being the birth cert that gived the mothers maiden name. However the marriage cert will have her down as Smith and (hopefully) a different surname for her father
Emeltee

[Kate P]

Oh gosh no I wasn't implying that Oakum, not at all. If anything it was me blundering in and being so certain I was right.

(I will recheck my certs anyway though as I think there was one marriage cert that wasn't by-the-book so to speak.)

[Oakum Picker]

Kate,

You'll probably find you are right - I have never seen a marriage cert. where the mother's name is in the father's space but I know others have them. In general though neither is the norm so the chance of Gloryer getting that info. is slim.

Even if Mary was legitimate, as she's knocking on a bit, her father may not have been alive & for every cert. that I have that gives John SMITH (deceased), I have the same number saying just Deceased or Father not living or sometimes left blank intimating illegitimacy where none exists.

Even so weighing everything up, I'd send for the cert.

[gloryer]

I have found some before that are 2nd marriages under their first married name and it gives the fathers name enabling me to seek out their first marriage as the fathers name gives me their maiden name.

[Uncle John]

I had one where the bride's father was a witness to the third marriage (there had been deaths in quick succession due to T.B.).