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John_8251
22-08-09, 15:48
I made a breakthough in April finally getting a County of birth in Ireland for my GGfather William Carroll b1857 in Waterford. I have taken time out since then and now ready to try and dig deeper.
Waterford records are not on line. I have contacted Waterford Heritage Centre who reply as follows....

We could do a research project in the Co Waterford area for the family of William Carroll.
We conduct commissioned research on the Civil & Church records pre -1911. If an initial search is successful the Report would include the date of birth or baptism of the person sought, the parents names and their date of marriage together with the dates of birth of siblings. It would also include a determination of the place of origin of the person involved.

Our fee for this research is ¤100 (Euro) or other currency equivalent.

All I know is that William Carroll was born in 1857. His father was a 'deceased labourer' (also William) when he married in 1879 in Liverpool. I have not traced any siblings. A fair chance Williams mother was called Bridget.

Anyone else tried this? Any alternative methods I should consider? Is it worth a shot? Any advice would be welcome :)

Janet in Yorkshire
22-08-09, 16:40
I think the relevant parish records may well be at the national Library in Dublin.
There is no guarantee the researcher will find anything in the time included with the first £100.

One option would be to watch the R***a** website and get yourself a cheap flight to Dublin for a day. (OH recently went from Bristol to Dublin for the day - £10 all in.)

Jay

Oakum Picker
22-08-09, 16:56
Are we talking Waterford City or County? R C or Cof I?

John_8251
22-08-09, 17:37
I think the relevant parish records may well be at the national Library in Dublin.
There is no guarantee the researcher will find anything in the time included with the first £100.

One option would be to watch the R***a** website and get yourself a cheap flight to Dublin for a day. (OH recently went from Bristol to Dublin for the day - £10 all in.)

Jay

I don't know the Parish... the 1911 census revealed Waterford and that could be County or City. I can get over to Dublin any time but would have to make a few enq to see if the records for Waterford are at the National Library.
He was a RC. I will make some enq thank you :)

Janet
22-08-09, 17:58
All parish records pre 1864 for RC are available to view at Dublin National Library. Equivalent Protestant parish records are at Dublin National Archives. Thre bad news is that unless you know the diocese you are looking for and roughly the areas, then you could be in for a long haul. Have you tried the online Griffiths records at Irish Origins to see if you can pinpoint the name to an area and preferably a townland? these are not too costly about £7 for 36 hours of searching around names and maps. There is also the free griffiths online though not all records are on this one. i will search out the website for you.

Going through the National Heritage sites can be very costly and not always very lucrative. They claim to be able to find all your forebears but they are very much aimed at the Rich? American market so you sometimes have to wait a very long time, up to a couple of years and you cannot be totally sure that you have the right family in the end!! I had an Irish cousin who tacked some of mine on to her resaerch through the Heritage Centre in Tipperary. They came up with some of the tree but I have done more work myself. Sometimes if you reach a brick wall and just want £25 worth of work on one person may be worth going after but if you have alot I really think they just like to take your money! Dublin National Library also cross over to approx 1880and so into the Civil Registration area of 1864 onwards. If you are mainly searching post 1864 then you are best off going to the GRO in Dublin.

By the way the initial search will throw up but very little, about one page and they used to charge £50 for that so if that has now gone to 100 euros wow that is a lot of money! A full report used to cost abot £300

Janet

jean
22-08-09, 18:18
RC parishes in Waterford
Co Waterford Roman Catholic Records (http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/county/waterford/watrc.html)

Janet
22-08-09, 18:29
Irish Origins website for Griffiths valuation

Irish Genealogy Search - Irish Origins ancestor records and Ireland maps (http://www.irishorigins.com/)

Free website for Griffiths Valuation

http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/gv_start.php

Janet

kylejustin
23-08-09, 09:21
i would say if you could, go to the irish national library. heritage centres are expensive, and you know you wont be getting a lot for your money.

Guy
23-08-09, 09:36
Why do people have to be so insulting when they disapprove of fees charged for a service.

This thread suggests a ransom has to be paid, not so.
The individual is at liberty to decide whether to take advantage of the service provided or ignore the service and find another route to his research.
The research centre involved has invested a large amount of time and money to set up the archive and provide the service and should be thanked for their efforts not belittled by such inane suggestions.

We as researchers may not like to pay fees for our research but we must understand that it takes huge amounts of both time and money to set up such archives and that money must come from somewhere.
Whether that money should be raised in taxes or recouped from the user is another question but it has to be provided somehow.
Cheers
Guy

Richard
23-08-09, 09:55
I've never heard anyone do anything but belittle one of these centres. It's not just the ridiculously high prices, the customer service is fairly constantly abysmal. I have never yet had anyone tell me they have been satisfied with price or service from an 'Irish Heritage Centre". I think Guy is far too generous in his asessment of them and the quality of work they do. My advice would be don't touch them with a barge pole. Go to Dublin yourself, pay a good and honest researcher to go for you, or alternatively some parishes have been filmed by the LDS, you may even be able to get hold of the film and view it at the centre local to you.

the meercat
23-08-09, 11:07
dont pay the money.

you wouldnt buy a pig in a poke.

Oakum Picker
23-08-09, 11:32
I have no problem paying as I did at the Herts RO (HALS) when I first started but I prefer to do my own research. The thing I object to is that the Heritage Centres don't allow Joe Public in to access their records & they want to charge a lot of money before they know if they have anything for you.

At least the ROs in this country will do a free first lookup before they charge or will at least tell you if they have what you require.

kylejustin
23-08-09, 11:45
agreed. i wont pay for co.clare to get my families records. first of all it will cost $400 for a preliminary search, and they wont say what type of records they found concerning my family.

Janet
23-08-09, 14:38
I will remind Guy and others that the Irish Heritage Centres were set up with the PARTIALLy completed records pulled together by the young unemployed of Ireland back in the 1970's which they did for free, but which system was paid for with EU money, that is by the money taken from the taxpayers of the rest of the EU to include Britain. The Heritage Centres have been making money ever since from this. It is not only the fact that you have to pay for the records and are unable to do your own research even when you go in person to the Heritage Centre, but they are also very INCOMPLETE, which I find is the biggest grumble. And until June of 2008 if you had Tipperary ancestors you were forced into going to the HC because the records were not available to you to research in person in Dublin. That has been redressed, and you can now do your own research on Tipperary ancestors at National Library Dublin. When my Irish cousin paid for research on her ancestors with some of mine from the HC, they only came up with ONE ancestor for my family, despite the fact I have found many since.

I have reached a point in my Irish research where I can just go back one more generation but a marriage of around 1825 is eluding me. Not to be found at the church or surrounding areas I had hoped, my possible only solution maybe to pay a HC about £25 to complete the circle. However, I will be going to Ireland next year so I will give The National Library one more go now that I can research Tipperary myself.

Janet

Yvonne the Sandgrounder
23-08-09, 20:50
Just a thought but when I had Irish ancestors who married in Liverpool the Records Office Liverpool were able to give me the parents first names of both partners. The marriage was in 1850's though
I emailed them and they emailed back and the information was free.

John_8251
23-08-09, 21:29
Thank you all very much for your thoughts on this one... sorry I was not available earlier to respond promptly. I value your imput and appreciate your time.
My heading for this thread did contain the word 'ransom' and was meant as an attention grabber to get some feedback.... cant see a single other word or phrase I used that suggests I was being rude to researchers.
I have food for thought from knowledgeable members and can now work on how to research further.... thank you :)

Guy
23-08-09, 21:30
I will remind Guy and others that the Irish Heritage Centres were set up with the PARTIALLy completed records pulled together by the young unemployed of Ireland back in the 1970's which they did for free, but which system was paid for with EU money, that is by the money taken from the taxpayers of the rest of the EU to include Britain. The Heritage Centres have been making money ever since from this. It is not only the fact that you have to pay for the records and are unable to do your own research even when you go in person to the Heritage Centre, but they are also very INCOMPLETE, which I find is the biggest grumble. And until June of 2008 if you had Tipperary ancestors you were forced into going to the HC because the records were not available to you to research in person in Dublin. That has been redressed, and you can now do your own research on Tipperary ancestors at National Library Dublin. When my Irish cousin paid for research on her ancestors with some of mine from the HC, they only came up with ONE ancestor for my family, despite the fact I have found many since.

I have reached a point in my Irish research where I can just go back one more generation but a marriage of around 1825 is eluding me. Not to be found at the church or surrounding areas I had hoped, my possible only solution maybe to pay a HC about £25 to complete the circle. However, I will be going to Ireland next year so I will give The National Library one more go now that I can research Tipperary myself.

Janet

On the other hand before the Heritage Centres were set up one had to have some idea what parish ones ancestors were baptised or married in. Get permission from the relevant Bishop to search the registers then spend days or weeks, at the National Library in Dublin, winding the microfilm to find the entry.

The registers were not indexed, many records were and are in such poor condition one had to be very experienced to decipher them.

I could be wrong but I believe quite a number of the Heritage Centres were formed by professionals before the government initiative to promote genealogical tourism.

I also believe that at the Waterford Heritage Centre one can do one's own research (for a small fee), though this does not apply to all Heritage Centres.
Cheers
Guy

Olde Crone Holden
23-08-09, 22:51
This is possibly an irrelevant observation, but has to do with the feeling of being held to ransom.

I found on the old A2A site, mention of a Will I desperately wanted. It was held by a firm of Solicitors in Salisbury.

My daughter happened to be working in Salisbury and I asked her to nip along to the Solicitor and find out how much they wanted for a copy of it.

They wanted £130 + vat. They justified this cost because "Someone has to go and find it, you know".

I declined and fumed for a while. THEN - I found the Will on Lancashire Records Office site. Cost including postage - £5.

In fact, the Will was a big disappointment and I would have been fit to be tied if I had paid £150+ for it.

OC

Janet
23-08-09, 23:05
Guy,

If you choose NOT to use the Heritage Centres as I have always chosen to do my own research, then the only way to research your Irish History has always been through Dublin National Library for RC records pre 1864 which only have the microfilm copies, as all pre 1864 records are still with all the churches all over Ireland. The readers vary and some are bad but many are OK. Some of the Cloyne records are very poor quality and many are missing, but many of these have not been indexed by the HC either, so spending money in this area would be a waste of money. This has always meant that you need to know where your ancestors are from in Ireland and knowing the county never was and still is not good enough, if you are looking for popular Irish names, whether you do your own research or whether you get the HC to do it for you. The only diocese you had to get permission from the Bishops were Kerry, Limerick and Cloyne. This was never arduous and Limerick dropped their demands on this many years ago as did Kerry. I had a letter flagged through from Cloyne 3 years ago which took one hour whilst I was at the Dublin National Library. This only left Cashel and Emly as being the awkward ones, where you could not view the records at all and could have been forced to go through the HC. Fortunately this last bar has now gone and the records can now be accessed through National Library. I got over it by visiting the place and church concerned where I found most of my baptisms but a few are missing and I think may be coming in from Kilkenny but the Tipperary HC do not cross over the border to Kilkenny hence my reluctance to pay for the research. In fact most HC will not cross borders into the next HC area so you could pay a lot of money and still end up with very little.

I do not know the Waterford HC but I do know that Wexford, Tipperary Offaly, Cloyne, Laois, do not allow you to do your own research at their centres and I also know that other people have tried to do their own research in other areas and have been unable to do so so there are few Centres that willl allow you access.

My gripe still is the fact that the HC's do NOT have all the records at their centres. The ONLy place where you will find ALL the records is at National Library Dublin.

I have usually managed to read all the entries for my ancestors except the ones that were missing!

I do not think these HC were there before the 1970's but there were some good family history associations at the time, most of which jumped on to the band wagon of moneymaking, though some have survived but very few.

Janet

John_8251
24-08-09, 02:38
My major problem is that I only have a County of birth. William's wife Winifred Dean is shown on the same 1911 census as being from Roscommon.
A bit more digging this evening has revealed the following information re Waterford Heritage and Gen Centre..... quote.

For instance, the Waterford Heritage and Genealogical Centre has taken every entry in all the record books from the hundreds of parishes in the diocese of Waterford and Lismore and committed them to computer. For a fee, they will do search for you. It's best to have as much information as possible before you contact them. Search for Waterford Heritage Genealogy Centre.

Most of the Church records up to 1880 are on microfilm and can be accessed at the National Library, Kildare Street, Dublin 2.

(c/o guide to church records ballybegvillage dot com)

It would seem that Waterford may have everything on computer. If they do then I would assume it would be searchable but like any other system it will only be as good as the information fed to the system.
In the initial email they sent me they did say the could research Waterford County but I know all I would/could get back would be details of Williams baptism, parents and any siblings for the 100 Euros. Timescale is 4 to 6 weeks.
I am now very tempted to go for it... if I did get the details they offer then it would be a huge step forward. If not.... it is unlikely I would have got them from Dublin anyway.
Will sleep on it tonight.

Arilla
24-08-09, 07:12
John - if your William Carroll married at St Anthony's RC church in Liverpool (& at least 2 William Carrolls did marry there according to the Liverpool RC marriages website) then the original parish register will show the names of both his mother & father (and also the names of both of the bride's parents too.) The registers for St Anthony's are on microfilm at Liverpool RO. This is info you won't get from the marriage cert, but is worth having before you approach any researcher in Ireland.
Sorry if this is the wrong church for you, but it might just help!

Janet
24-08-09, 10:25
John,

It would help you if you could find out where in Waterford your ancestors are from as the Northern part of Waterford near Carrick on Suir, which is actually Kilkenny, borders on Tipperary and Kilkenny and would therefore be in different Diocese and could obviously have the potential for being a problem for you. This is where I run into trouble with my own ancestors being so close to the Kilkenny border.

I hope you are also aware that to search in the National Library in Dublin that you can only do so by knowing which diocese you are going to be searching and that the NL is only for researching RC pre 1864 but up to 1880 as Protestant are at the National Archives in Dublin. you cannot search by county. This is where sometimes you have to consider paying for records, but if your ancestors are on borders be aware that there is no crossover into the next diocese from a particular HC.

Janet

John_8251
24-08-09, 10:35
John - if your William Carroll married at St Anthony's RC church in Liverpool (& at least 2 William Carrolls did marry there according to the Liverpool RC marriages website) then the original parish register will show the names of both his mother & father (and also the names of both of the bride's parents too.) The registers for St Anthony's are on microfilm at Liverpool RO. This is info you won't get from the marriage cert, but is worth having before you approach any researcher in Ireland.
Sorry if this is the wrong church for you, but it might just help!

Thank you for taking the time.... My William married at St Oswald RC, Old Swan on 12th Jan 1879. His dad was also William (deceased labourer), Irish Catholic naming traditions are perfectly reflected in the naming of the 11 children. The second daughter was called Bridget... I suspect that is Williams mothers name but have no proof.

John_8251
24-08-09, 11:03
John,

It would help you if you could find out where in Waterford your ancestors are from as the Northern part of Waterford near Carrick on Suir, which is actually Kilkenny, borders on Tipperary and Kilkenny and would therefore be in different Diocese and could obviously have the potential for being a problem for you. This is where I run into trouble with my own ancestors being so close to the Kilkenny border.

I hope you are also aware that to search in the National Library in Dublin that you can only do so by knowing which diocese you are going to be searching and that the NL is only for researching RC pre 1864 but up to 1880 as Protestant are at the National Archives in Dublin. you cannot search by county. This is where sometimes you have to consider paying for records, but if your ancestors are on borders be aware that there is no crossover into the next diocese from a particular HC.

Janet

Thank you so much Janet, I value your experience on this one.
Well I have just commisioned the search and paid the fee (not ransom :) )
I have included all the information possible and to be honest, it is the only realistic chance I have of going back further.
I telephoned a lovely man in Waterford... I could hear him stirring his tea in the perfect silence of his office as he answered the phone with a straight...'hello?' None of this political correctness ie..Thank you for calling the Waterford Heritage Centre!
I sent the mail as we spoke and even heard it arrive! He looked at the mail and read it over to me... 'Oi tink we can give this a good run' he said. :)
So... lets see what develops. I will keep you posted! Thank you all for your imput and thoughts on this one.

Richard
24-08-09, 11:33
Hi John

It may have been the only realistic option. Just been looking through Griffiths for 1848-51 and 41 of the 77 parishes have Carroll families, though only 7 or 8 with William Carrolls as head of household. None of these seem to have been filmed by the LDS in any case so the National Library was your only alternative to the Heritage Centre.

John_8251
24-08-09, 11:58
Hi John

It may have been the only realistic option. Just been looking through Griffiths for 1848-51 and 41 of the 77 parishes have Carroll families, though only 7 or 8 with William Carrolls as head of household. None of these seem to have been filmed by the LDS in any case so the National Library was your only alternative to the Heritage Centre.

Thanks for that info Richard... Mr O'Conner at the Heritage Centre has finished his tea and mailed me. I should have a result in 4 to 6 weeks and they wont debit my card till the research is completed.

My bar bill for 3 or 4 days in Dublin would have cost more. I reckon I have saved 400 Euros using the same logic as my ex wife did when shoe shopping in the sales :)

John_8251
20-10-09, 00:11
Just thought I would post an update.
I have just recieved my long awaited mail from Waterford Heritage Services and I am pleased to say the research seemed quite thorough.
They searched the parishes of the Roman Catholice Diocese of Waterford and Lismore including those records partly in Waterford and Tipperary.

My search was for a William Carroll b abt 1857, with a father called William Carroll. Seems I was very fortunate, several Williams born within 5 years but only one possible record was found with a father named William.

Bottom line is I am as sure as I can be at this stage they have found my William Carroll baptised in 1856 :) I have his fathers marriage to Ellen Morrissey on the 4th of April 1853 and the baptism records of 6 siblings. Records give dates of baptism, names of parents, sponsers, details of priest and all (including the marriage) are conducted in the parish of Stradbally.

They also provided full records of 4 possible fathers of the 'new' William who married Ellen Morrissey.

Just one thing missing is the name of the RC church(s) as these are Parish records and the only address given is on one baptism... Bonmahon (5 miles from Stradbally).

I am hoping that the names of the 3 priests on the records, Michael Power, John Dowley and Thomas Casey may lead me to the church. (1853-1864)

I put the names on my tree and I found one hint on Ancestry for a Thomas Carroll....with the same parents and Parish on a small tree with links to Australia. So I have sent a mail.

So.... for my 100 Euros I am pleased with the research and have quite a bit of info that may fill a few gaps and open up others. Yes I would have loved to do it myself but accessing the records is not easy. I got what I wanted... I cant ask for more!

Harrys mum
20-10-09, 07:02
I'm glad you got some helpful info, John.

I had to pay 70 pounds for some research and was very happy with what I got. Sometimes you have to pay.

I do know a Carroll in Australia....just happens to be a priest....lol

Janet
20-10-09, 10:43
John

I am pleased you had such a positive outcome from your enquiries. So it was worth paying the "ransom" err "fee"!

If I do not get the result I want in Dublin next year then I will have to do the same as a last resort.

Janet