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  • Another bit of French help please.

    If anyone is about who parlez le français ....



    I'm okay with the top few lines and bottom two which are pretty standard fare baptism stuff, but the middle chunk is what I'm stumbling on. From what I can make out they are new converts, having recently abjured and the baby has been baptised conditionally on them continuing to exercise the faith? At least I think thats the jist of it, quite a few words I just can't make out. Would appreciate if anyone can help enlighten me to exactly what it does say.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Richard; 10-08-09, 16:22.

  • #2
    Richard, I can read French, but I can't read the writing. Any chance you could type it out in French to give us a bit of help, or can't you make out the letters either?

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello Karen, unfortunately that is exactly the problem I am having, making out what the words are, rather than knowing and being unable to translate. I was hoping they may look more obvious to someone more fluent or familiar with the language than I.

      Comment


      • #4
        french translation

        Hi Richard
        I think some of the difficulty could be in the 17thC french script especially in such documents.For example moi is written moy and quoi is quoy and that's just what I've found so far.Also the priest's writing is fairly unclear as he runs letters into each other and sometimes just ends a word with a line.I can translate french but this script is a problem.I'm desperately trying to get my eye in so I can try and work out how this priest writes each letter .Do you have any context/background to the document?You never know it could help us to help you!!

        Liz
        my avatar is Emily Varndell Andrews,my paternal grandmother born 1891

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello Liz

          Re the context, it's a baptism from the Catholic Church Records of Athis in Normandy. My Bellenger family are in these records from around 1715 onwards baptising their children there, with the priest clearly marking them as R.P.R Protestants in each case. However there are barely two or three baptisms for them in the previous period 1685-1715. Not entirely suprising as I have read this is the usual pattern after the Protestant churches were closed and destroyed in the early 1680's, though the Protestants were legally obliged to take their children to Catholic baptism in this period, and faced a massive fine of 500 livres for not doing so, and perhaps even the child being taken away, they probably initially carried on having them either baptised by their outlawed pastors in secret for some time, or if they did go to the Catholic church were not at that early time as open about their status as non-catholics as they later would be, because of the then great intensity of the persecution they faced.

          Certainly a lot of them who didn't flee abjured and became 'new catholics' for time being later reverting to Protestantism when the atmosphere was safer to do so. I suspect this is case with the above baptism for my Bellenger family. However the register is full of Protestants 'abjuring the heresy of Calvin', and there isn't an entry of any of the Bellengers having done this at any time. Perhaps they were lying to the Vicar about being 'new converts' and he was suspiscous? That might be what the above entry is relating to. Certainly it is very unusual in the register, I didn't notice any other like it.
          Last edited by Richard; 10-08-09, 19:22.

          Comment


          • #6
            Richard, which words can you make out?

            Perhaps we can piece it together between us if you help us get to grips with the strange handwriting!

            Comment


            • #7
              This is what I think can make out...

              La Vingt Sieze jour du Janvier mil six cent quatre vingt troize Marie Bellenger fille du David Bellenger et Marie du Mool? a ete Baptise par moy vicaire et nomme de marie Par Marie Marrin et Louis Bellenger nouventendu? Catholique lequel nous avant recevu a condition qui fairais? -- exercise? de la Religion Catholique Romaine ce a quoy ils est oblige pour ---?--- --- par la du elevation du Roy contre? ----relapse? ete et autre a oblige toux --- --- -------que le ------du Nouveu abjuration de son ecrire? ce quil a signe aure tous Marie Martin et Moy Vicaire presence de Joan Restous et Louis Marchand

              La Marque du Marie Marrin
              J Restouss
              L Bellenger
              Louis Marchand

              Comment


              • #8
                A starting point for someone who knows the language better to have a go at (plus further attempts to correct unknown letters on the basis of ones recognised - I don't think I've been entirely consistent):

                Le vingt ### jour de Janvier mil six ans quatre vingt
                treize [makes sense for 1693] marie bellanger Gille de david de marie du Mode
                a vige Baptism par moy vicaire de nommitté marie par
                marie marrin de louise bellanger nouveldrdu Catholique
                urquel naut au## revivre a condition que faire ever exiveire
                de la relilgion Catholique romaine er a quoy il son obligé
                soure [suivre??] ever primisse porrirer par la drelavation du Roy contre
                ever relapse et en outre de obligge louse luse Sicture re a rooue
                que le presons altge luren de nouvelle abjuration de son heresie
                coquil a signe aurelais marie marrin de moy vicaire
                presence de Joan revston se louise marchand

                la marque de
                [signatures]

                Christine
                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                Comment


                • #9
                  "abjuration de son heresie"

                  Yes think you are right there, Christine it is heresie rather than ecrire as I had, makes much more sense doesn't it...that's one more word solved at least..

                  Thanks by the way for help..not an easy one this. I was going through one of the neighbouring parishes yesterday checking for strays and the priest there, in contrast, had the most beautiful, bold, crystal clear writing...typical eh!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I haven't changed any of my contribution - tho' I can see that your version is significantly more likely in most cases than mine.

                    Christine
                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Taking a stab at the few bits I can decipher:
                      The 25th Jan 1693 Marie Bellanger daughter of David and marie du--- has been baptised by me vicar and nominated? --- by Marie Marrin and Louis bellenger newly-converted? catholic whom we have received on condition that they make their assurance of the roman catholic religion or to whom they ---obliged to prove their first ------- under the-----of the king against thier relapse and in addition are obliged all on---------------------------------------------new abjuration of their heresy which have signed on all Marie marrin and me vicar in the presence of......

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Presumably the "nominated" is just "named" - as you would be at Baptism?

                        Christine
                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes, that would fit, Chrisrtine, then it reads "named Marie by.." followed by her parents' names.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not forgetting that the French use "vicaire" more in the way that we (incorrectly) use "curate" (instead of "assistant curate"). The parish priest (whom C of E folks might call "Rector" or "Vicar") would have been the "curé", I believe.

                            Christine
                            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks all. The baptism part at beginning have no problem with really as much the same as the other baptisms in the register, follows a fairly standard wording, it's just those elusive middle lines dealing with the religious position which has me stumped really. It does look like I could be beaten here by the curates fiddly handwriting.....

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                french translation

                                Hello Richard
                                yes its "baptised in the name of Maria on behalf of Maria Martin and David(but shouldn't it be Louis?) Bellanger."I think the next bit is that the child remains baptised so long as the parents observe the offices of the roman catholic church and do not turn back to their former heresy.They sign or make their mark in the presence of the priest and 2 witnesses so this is quite a formal document .Presumably then if they went back on their oath their child would become unbaptised.I haven't been able to translate every single word as some are so hard to read but I hope this helps.I'll have another look later tomorrow if you like.

                                Liz
                                my avatar is Emily Varndell Andrews,my paternal grandmother born 1891

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Liz

                                  Thanks for your help much appreicated

                                  This is how I understand the opening baptism part to read when translated into English :

                                  The 26/7 day of January 1693 Marie Bellenger daughter of David and Marie du Mode? has been baptised by me, curate, and named Marie for Marie Marrin (poss Martin?) and Louis Bellenger.....

                                  That bit is standard in wording and structure for pretty much all the baptisms more or less, and usually it would then just say the Godparents (indicating Marie Marrin/martin and Louis Bellenger), signed (or not signed as case may be) then the Godparents mark or signatures and usually the signature of the curate too. This one is then unusual to instead go off on this religious angle.

                                  What I have just noticed is it doesn't say 'nee en marriage legitimate' which the Catholic baptisms almost always do, so they presumbaly have not gone through a Catholic wedding ceremony either (which would fit with 'new converts', especially if as is likely reluctant/coerced ones).

                                  "I think the next bit is that the child remains baptised so long as the parents observe the offices of the roman catholic church and do not turn back to their former heresy"

                                  Even if the exact wording is proving difficult to figure out I tend to agree here Liz this is what I think this is more or less saying too, though it seems to be referring to the King too though somehow, not quite sure in what exact context.

                                  The 2 witnesses (Joan Restouss and Louis Marchand) also sign the next entry, in that case a Protestant child where the parents are explictly named as Protestants. This is in fact the first and earliest instance of such, an open Protestant baptism, that I could find in this Catholic Register. Whether that has significance for my baptism also I don't know. Both are certainly unusual entries for the time. Just a handful more open Protestant baptisms occur over the following decade, and it is not until around 20 years on they start appearing again more frequently. By the 1730's/40's, in sharp contrast, they amount to roughly 20% of all entries I've looked through, around 1 in 5 baptisms, more accurately reflecting their true numbers in the local population I would think.
                                  Last edited by Richard; 11-08-09, 00:25.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I think there must be serious theological weaknesses in such a diktat!

                                    The idea that the parents' actions could render a child's baptism invalid? ...still ... that's not what this thread is about, so we'd better not go there!

                                    Christine
                                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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